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Thread: Scary Dust Collector

  1. #16
    Bill, Your 3HP system might have enough suck so that you won't care about a leaky blast gate. I loosen them (thumb screw), move the gate, and tighten. You can set them sort of tight and just move the gate but I find the gate will not seal 100% and then vibrates. Personally I wouldn't worry about it, just install it, play with it, and you'll make it work for you. A little caulk on the gate might provide enough pressure for your likeing. Of course you can always install the fancy automatic blast gates

  2. #17
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Seattle, WA
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    284
    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Webber
    When I use Bill Pentz' spread sheet to calculate CFM I get numbers that are quite a bit different from what Oneida calculates.
    It comes down to: who are you going to trust, the amateur hobbiest who has assembled a lot of information from various sources, or the professionals who actually design and build dust collection systems for a living, who employ engineers and HVAC technicians who understand the theory and perform hundreds of system design calculation every year?

  3. #18
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    SE PA - Central Bucks County
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    Welcome to SMC, Bill. And I remember well lifting my 2hp blower up over-head as it not only needed to clear the brackets, but also have the motor fit up between the joists. I had Fred Voorhees to help, but even then it was an interesting experience. I can imagine your situation with a heavier machine!

    'Can't wait to see more shots of your shop!
    --

    The most expensive tool is the one you buy "cheaply" and often...

  4. #19
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Skillman, NJ
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    933

    shop

    Bill,
    Your shop looks so clean! ... suspended acoustical tiles, closers on your doors, actual one paint color on the walls let alone paint! Are you turning into one of "those guys" on me?

  5. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Webber
    When I use Bill Pentz' spread sheet to calculate CFM I get numbers that are quite a bit different from what Oneida calculates. That is a little worrisome.
    Hi Bill,

    Keep in mind that for a key thing like a specific hood type, the SP entry loss values can vary a lot. This can dramatically mess with the final cfm values you calculate. I believe Bill is using estimated hood entry loss values for a flared inlet. This is between the major loss of a plain end pipe and a nice bellmouth.

    I've also seen folks set up a simulated duct run with Bill's spreadsheet and then take that SP/cfm combo and compare it to Oneida/Grizz, etc. A common problem is that folks will also enter a value for the cyclone resistance in Bill's spreadsheet. But you shouldn't do this when planning the system for a cyclone with a published system curve - the cyclone resistance is already factored in. So often the SP values are out by 2.5-3" with this problem alone.

    Can you post your sample duct run and I'll give it a shot and see what values I come up with?

    Cheers,

    Allan

  6. #21
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Highland, Maryland
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    163
    Hi, Paul, good to hear from you. I don't believe you have pi... er caused any controversy in what, two three days now? ISSH.

    I'm not sure what one of 'those guys' might be. My shop is not a 'make do' or a room stuck off in a barn. (I some times wish I had a barn and I'm not bustin' on folks who have barns...) My shop has been an integral part of my home, a living space, for many years. My retirement shop will be the same only prettier. Much of my design/layout focus is on making a pleasant working environment, one that can be used without worry of dusting up the rest of the house, easily cleaned and always accessible, part workshop, part showroom and simply an extension of what pleases me.

    In my new shop I get the whole basement. The builder-guy broke it up into some offices for his model showroom. For me, I've made some mods and kept some of what the builder did. My shop has a clean room (old tools, collectibles, pianos, victrolas, the 'yuppie workbench', etc.) a small shop (grinders, buffers, scroll saw, hand tool work bench) a big shop (all the new MinMax stuff, my old RAS's, my Robland K-26 [did I ever tell anyone it is better tool than a K-31?])?<-- (looks like swearin', eh?) There's another room for the exercise equipment. Gotta have that stuff or we won't live forever! I'm thinking we need to use it, though.

    Lessee, I was thinking of something zippy and funny here, for Paul, but it's not working. LOML and #1 daughter picked the new home and I went happily along. My shop will be long on tools and short of assembly space. Oh well, the K-26, big RAS, table wing on the S315 will likely double as assembly surfaces. I sure hope the K-26 will fit in there! There are too many special things I use it for.

    After spending the day at the hospital, I'm pleased to report I can bring my gutsy, beautiful bride of 39 years home tommorrow... I'm so pleased and proud of her!

    Where was I? Oh, Paul, love the garage doors in your shop! Did you put them in as part of the original desiign or later? ISSH.

    And, Steve, yeah what you said. I'll go with the gates.

    Best regards ,

    Bill W.
    Woodworkers visit me at:
    http://www.oldtoolsshop.com/Galoots/wWebber/

  7. #22
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Highland, Maryland
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    Hi Allen,

    I gotta admit I haven't pursued the design details of my dust collector system in a very studied manner. I know that my 3HP Oneida with appropriate duct sizing will deliver the best performance I am willing to pay for in the size and configuration I've chosen. I didn't sort out Bill Pentz' spread sheet but I'm thinking he uses 800CFM and 4000FPM as constants and that may be part of my confusion.

    I'll take you up on your offer. I'll start working on my ducting design shortly. It may take up to 8 weeks to get something on paper... we won't be moving for quite a while yet. Oneida says my replacement drum is in the mail.

    Regards,

    Bill W.
    Woodworkers visit me at:
    http://www.oldtoolsshop.com/Galoots/wWebber/

  8. #23
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Skillman, NJ
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    Bill,
    Not sure what happened but glad to hear your wife is coming home. As is sounds you feel the same, my wife is my best friend not quite sure what I would do without her.

    Yes those OH doors were part of the original design! They were installed about 20+ years ago. We have only been here for about 2 years now. It took me a year to begin to set up the shop after we moved and just tonight I "finished" the "final" connection to my new MM160 . I never got around to painting like my last shop, heck I never even finished spackling some of the tape on the ceiling! Yup my shop is a real looker, a testament to my Architectural prowess. Since I will never leave this house, until they carry me out in a box this might be as good as it gets but my machines make up for the lack of ambiance.

    I have done a fair amount of research on DC through my evolutions over the years and I have to say one of the biggest things is the duct size and making sure eveything is as sealed as possible. I do not care what you use but cover every little nook and cranny on those ducts it will make a big difference.

  9. #24
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Highland, Maryland
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    163
    Hi again... I'm not sure where this message will show up in the message tree, but here's an update on the dust collector installation. I've got the skirts installed to trim up the through-the-wall filter installation. I covered half the opening with a board and fired it up. It turns in the correct direction. I didn't expect the dust collection bin to leap up off the floor... that startled me a little.

    Allan, you offered to do an air flow calc for me so here's a diagram. The pipe is 8" from the collector to the first wye and then 7" the rest of the way. Each wye has a 5" blast gate and ultimately 5" hose to machine adapters as needed. There is one wye that has a 4" drop to the saw guard on the table saw. I haven't ordered any of thi$ Nordfab $tuff yet, so the design is open to suggestions. Notice how I cleverly incorporated the "don't do it this way" installation from the Oneida diagrams.

    Tell me what you think... and, yeah, I know, way too many tools for this small area.

    Regards,


    Bill W.
    Woodworkers visit me at:
    http://www.oldtoolsshop.com/Galoots/wWebber/</pre>
    Attached Images Attached Images

  10. #25
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Mont. Co. MD
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    Bill,
    My gut reaction is that you should step down your pipe diameters as you go. Run the 7" to the Table saw main wye, then step it down to 6". Run the 6" to the second "Misc" wye/drop and step it down to 5" for the final run to the floor sweep. This should maintain the velocity throughout the system, and save you a little money too.

    BTW, I meant to ask you where you are located in Howeird Co.? I've over in Monkey Co. in the Laytonsville area. If you'd like to come take a look at my system I'd be more than happy to show it to you sometime. I've got the Oneida 2 HP com. unit in a basement shop.

  11. #26
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    SE PA - Central Bucks County
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    Nice installation. Personaly, I wouldn't do Nordfab through the whole system, but might us it for any quick disconnects or in specific places where you know you'll need to open it up with "some frequency". The stuff is very expensive, no matter where you buy it. (I believe there is a bit of "price control" there, just like with major power tools) Spiral manufactured locally or heavy snap lock is more affordable and can be mated with Nordfab where desired. IMHO, of course.

    Onieda uses the Nordfab in their lab to connect to the Mini Max equipment so hoses can be moved easily, but uses regular duct back to the system(s).
    --

    The most expensive tool is the one you buy "cheaply" and often...

  12. #27
    bill, in my dust system i salvaged 1/8 wall steel pipe from a defunct grain elevator. welded it together in the attic. it`s smooth on the inside and will never collapse. just some food for thought??? tod

  13. #28
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    SE PA - Central Bucks County
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    I don't recall seeing too many grain elevators in Maryland, Tod!! LOL (nor here in PA) But that's a great idea!
    --

    The most expensive tool is the one you buy "cheaply" and often...

  14. #29
    Join Date
    Oct 2005
    Location
    Highland, Maryland
    Posts
    163
    Yeah, Bill, I think the step down you are recommending is probably correct. However, I want to see if this compromise can work for two reasons. (1) I want to keep as many of the components similarly sized so I can rearrange it. And (2) there is a shaper at the end of the run that has two 4" ports (metric actually).

    The shaper is the MinMax T50. It has the two ports, but my limited experience with my Robland shaper suggests the second port could likely be blocked and chip pick-up probably would not be changed much. (The second port may come into play more when the spindle is tilted.) Maybe Paul or one of the other Minimax owners will jump in here and I can get someone to do an experiment. I wouldn't mind reducing the size of that last leg to save some money. Another problem I've just encountered is the price of these long radius elbows really jumps for sizes under 8 inches. Hey, it's a work in progress.

    Bill, I'm in Highland, right around the corner from you, but all this new stuff is up in Pennsylvania.

    Regards,

    Bill W.
    Woodworkers visit me at:
    http://www.oldtoolsshop.com/Galoots/wWebber/</pre>

  15. #30
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    Oct 2005
    Location
    Highland, Maryland
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    Point well taken, Jim. I'm going for pretty here as well as functional... and whining all the way.

    Dust collection stuff is bog ugly at best. I've done the screw, rivet, tape bit before and it doesn't age well. Another difficulty, right now, is that most of the equipment is not in Pennsylvania yet. I don't know where stuff will be located but I do know it will be crowded.

    Keep the comments coming. I know what I'm trying to do is breaking a few rules (common sense may be one of them). I bought the bigger 3 hp to suck through the rules I'm ignoring. But, I haven't settled on anything yet.

    Regards,

    Bill W.
    Woodworkers visit me at:
    http://www.oldtoolsshop.com/Galoots/wWebber/</pre>

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