Real newbie question about different finishes?

[Josh Goldsmith]

I am slowing becoming a better woodworker but one thing i really haven't did my homework is the finishing process. I have a couple questions. How do you guys apply a stain? I am currently using a nice brush then letting it sit for about 5mins then wipping it off. Also what is the difference between polyurethane, shellac, laquer? Also how do you guys apply the finish coat? I have been using polyurethane and applying it with a purdy paint brush. It has been working for me but wanted to make sure there isn't a better way. I am currently building a bedframe. What topcoat would you recommend. I would like something that has a matte finish. Is there any topcoat that is thick enough to sand and buff out? If there is any steps or tricks that i didn't mention please let me know. Thanks Josh

[Guy Germaine]

All good questions Josh. I suggest getting a cup of coffee, and get comfortable because you are going to get many, many answers to each question!

As for staining, I don't do it all that often. Don't like it. However, when I do use stain, I apply it with an old tee shirt wadded up into a small ball. I then use another old tee shirt to wipe it off, and blend it together so it looks even.

I'll let the experts explain the differences between Poly, shellac, and laquer.

On larger projects, I have a small detail spray gun that I use to apply the finish coats. On smaller stuff, I usually thin the poly with mineral spirits and wipe it on with an old tee shirt. Wipe on several coats and use 0000 steel wool in between coats.

What kind of wood are you using on your bedframe? That will help decide on what finish to use. If you're using a hardwood like walnut, or something with a lot of figure in it, you'll want to use a finish that will "pop" the grain.

Like I said. Sit tight, the "real" experts will be along shortly.

[Jeff Sudmeier]

Josh,

I am pretty new to finishing too. There are as many ways to finish as there are woodworkers and each and every one of us does it a little different.

Best advice I can give you is to do what you like, find out what you like, by trying different methods.

Myself I apply stain with an old tshirt as well and wipe it off. I flood the surface and then when wiping it off, I check for even coverage. I have only stained one project so far, I like to let the natural wood show in most cases.

My favorite way to finish is as follows:
1) Sand to 220 (400 on the end grain). Some people say it is overkill, but I like the way it looks and feels
2) Apply a coat of witches brew. (1/3 Boiled linseed oil, 1/3 poly, 1/3 Mineral Spirits). The oil really pops the grain and the poly gives it toughness. The resulting finish is a softer finish than straight poly but more durable than oil alone.
3) Sand lightly with 400 grit paper
--Repeat steps 2 and 3 till you are happy normally 4-5 coats

I apply the Witches brew using a "french polish" method. Just take an old towel and cut out about a 4x4 section, fold it up to make a pad. Now take an old t-shirt and cut it so it will cover up the pad, open the tshirt and pour in some brew. The t-shirt filters the brew and keeps out any dust, etc that got in it.

Works for me

[Bob Noles]

Josh,

This could be a really looooong thread based on your questions. The best advice I can offer is to seek out a book by Bob Flexner called Understanding Wood Finishing.

I had many of the same questions running thru my mind as you have and believe me, this book answered every one of them and then some.

[Jim Hinze]

I have been very successfull in using the general finishes products. I too rarely stain, but when I do I use the General Finishes seal-a-cell / stain products (the ones in the red can) and use General Finishes Arm-R-Seal as the top coat.

Occasionally I'll use seal-a-cell with a built up clear shellac or amber shellac top coat.

I try hard to stay away from Poly but will use it on small items once in a while. I have not yet used any laquer...

[Neil Bosdet]

Ditto on Flexner's book (Bob above). It's great. A must buy and read book. The questions you've asked are great but they're way too big and detailed to answer here. You won't regret getting this book. I've read it probably 2 or 3 times and too times as a reference to mention.

[Aaron Beaver]

Here is a link that you might find helpful.

http://www.homesteadfinishing.com/ht...singFinish.htm

[Mark Singer]

Jeff,
Did you ever try wearing the t shirt after you apply stain...there are some really cool effects...Batik and tie died....years ago when Janis Joplin was singin at the Filmore and a bud gave me.........I guess i am getting off track again

[Peter M. Spirito]

My wife says if I had let the tee shirt dry out before putting it on the hair wouldn't have fallen off of my chest and I wouldn't have broken out in this festering rash.

[Dennis Peacock]

I am slowing becoming a better woodworker but one thing i really haven't did my homework is the finishing process. I have a couple questions. How do you guys apply a stain? I am currently using a nice brush then letting it sit for about 5mins then wipping it off. Also what is the difference between polyurethane, shellac, laquer? Also how do you guys apply the finish coat? I have been using polyurethane and applying it with a purdy paint brush. It has been working for me but wanted to make sure there isn't a better way. I am currently building a bedframe. What topcoat would you recommend. I would like something that has a matte finish. Is there any topcoat that is thick enough to sand and buff out? If there is any steps or tricks that i didn't mention please let me know. Thanks Josh

Josh,
We all have to start somewhere and the best place to start is "the beginning". Ask any 5 woodworkers about how to finish something and what to use and you'll get 25 different answers. All of this is just my view and my experience only....so weigh all the info you get out for a more even balance of info that you will gain in this thread.

Stain? Well there's Oil Based Stain, Water Based Dye, Alcohol Based Dye, and chemical coloring via some rather nasty chemicals. An easy dye/stain would be white vinegar and shredded stealwool.

<I>Oil Based Stain</I> - Takes about 24 hours to dry. Can be applied via spraying, brushing, brushing/wiping, and just rubbed in via a cotton rag. Some stains do better with spraying for a more even application, but rubbing it in with a rag can get you the same results. I use it sometimes, but I've learned about "dye" instead of stain. So I'm using more and more dye instead of stain. <B>Dispose of oil based stain rags properly so you will have a shop to come back to the next day.</B> Oil Based Stain also needs warm temps to "dry"....so it needs temps warmer than some shops are this time of year.

<I>Water Based Dye</I> - Dries in a few minutes and depends on how quickly the water evaporates and how quickly the wood absorbs the water applied to its surface. It can have a tendency to "raise the grain" depending on the wood you are applying it to. I apply a light sprinkle of water to the wood surface, allow it to dry and then lightly sand and remove the sanding dust.....then I apply the Water Based Dye. I've found that using WBD, a more even color is applied if sprayed...even if it's sprayed on with an airbrush. I've done this several times with an airbrush with very successful and very even color on the wood. The good thing about WBD? The worst thing that happens to you is that your hands/fingers get to show the color your using for a few days if not cleaned off soon. WBD is not flammable, so the risk of fire is basically zero. I say "zero" because anything in a woodworkers shop can happen to cause a fire if we all aren't very careful and develop good safety standards before we develop bad habits in the shop.

<I>Alcohol Base Dye</I> - Dries in less than a few minutes and doesn't normally raise the grain. I've found that Alcohol Based Dye, like any other wood coloring media can be applied via spraying, brushing/wiping, brushing alone, or hand-rubbed. I've found through experience that applying most dye via hand rubbing, can leave the wood surface kinda "slotchy" and your color will appear spotted. DAMHIKT!!!!! The Alcohol flashes off fairly quickly and if spraying, be sure there are no sources of fire are anywhere close. My recommendation for applying dye is to either use a brush and don't wipe, or spray.

<I>Lacquer</I> - There are several type of lacquer out on the market today. I can only speak to those lacquers that require a chemical thinner to thin or clean the tools used to apply it. You should ALWAYS use a chemical respirator when using lacquer. It's in the best interest of your health if you do. Now....lacquer is a chemical bond type of "topcoat". Meaning that each successive coat applied to the top of the previous coat, melts a portion of the previous coat making is a single thicker coat. It's a fairly tough finish, but it doesn't wear as tough as Polyurethane, but more on that later. Lacquer can be recoated in less than 30 minutes depending on the temp in the shop where it is applied. It can be brushed if it's a good brushing lacquer, but many apply lacquer with a spray gun or aerosol can spray. Lacquer dries so quickly that if you brush it, you must either add a "retarder" to it to help prevent overlapping lines in the topcoat or you have to "get a move on" to try and keep a wet edge so that the brushed coat appears as a single coat without brush lap marks. It's not impossible, just takes practice.

<I>Shellac</I> - One of my favorite finishes. Not as durable as lacquer or poly, but still a very nice finish. Denatured Alcohol is the thinner for Shellac, and shellac dries extremely quick and is the finish of choice for instrument makers and these finishes are "French Polished". I won't get into French Polishing at the moment. Shellac is a good finish to "lay on". Meaning, using a brush and lay down a nice even thick film of shellac in a single stroke. Brushing over fresh shellac will result in brush strokes. DAMHIKT either.!!! Shellac is like Lacquer in a way....it's also a chemical bond type finish. Each successive coat will melt a portion of the previous coat and meld both into a single coat. I neve sand between coats of Lacquer or Shellac. Shellac can be brushed, sprayed, padded, or applied via French Polishing. I prefer spraying as well as "padding" the shellac. Padding or French Polishing in my experience works best with either a 1 pound or 1-1/2 pound cut of shellac. I posted the many uses and types of Shellac somewhere in the forum, just gotta find it again. Due to the Denatured Alcohol used in a Shellac finish, once again fire safety is the rule here and not the exception.

<I>Polyurethane</I> - Slow drying and requires sanding between coats. Poly requires a "mechanical bond" for each successive coat to adhere to the previous coat. Sanding is done to provide a surface for the Poly to "grab a hold of" to make it all look like a single film coat. Poly (oil based) can be thinned with Mineral Spirits or Naptha. Naptha will aid in the drying process as the naptha will flash off faster than standard Mineral Spirits. This "flashing off" is the beginning of the overall curing process. Poly can "generally" be recoated in about 4 to 8 hours depending on the environment it is being applied in. A warm shop? It will dry faster. Cold shop? It may take a full 24 hours before it can be recoated. So, warm up that shop to above 65&#186; F and you will have a decent drying time. Again fire safety is the rule here if the poly your are using is an Oil Based Poly. Shoot, just go ahead and practive extreme fire safety with ALL finishes and you'll be better off in the long run.

Well, I'm sure others will chime in here and maybe even some will tell me I'm incorrect in some or most cases......but once again....I'm just trying to help you learn a little more about the finishes and how "I" do it. I hope this helps even a little.

Oh, and about applying your poly? What works really well for me is this schedule:
1. Thin it 50/50 with your choice of thinner - MS or Naptha and apply this to the piece being finished. Then "lightly" sand when dry.
2. Apply the 2nd coat with a 70/30 mix of Poly/MS or Naptha and apply this to the piece. Then lightly sand again.
3. Apply the final coal with a 80/20 mix and call it done if you want to stop here.
With Poly, I usually wait about 4 weeks before rubbing it out with 0000 steelwool and Johnson's Paste wax. But rubbing out is another whole story.

[tod evans]

i`ll try and make this simple???? polyurethane is a plastic, as such it is very dificult to repair down the road.schellac is beetle poop refined,easy to apply and repair,plus schellac will allow you to combine finishes that are not compatable by applying a coat of schellac between them.lacquer is the most idiot proof finish i have found but must be sprayed and the fumes cause dain bramage lacquer,like schllac, is repairable down the road. dennis did a good job explaining some of the differences, the only reason for my post was to make clear that it`s a bugger to repair a damaged poly finish. bob flexner is an expert who speaks plain english and his book(s) are worth the money....02 tod