Shop Fox 3HP Shaper Question - Model W1702 spindles

[Tom Overthere]

The w1702 comes with three spindles - 1/2" 3/4" 1"
http://www.woodstockinternational.com/w1702

Shop Fox does not sell a 1.25" spindle, and according to their tech support, it sounds like this shaper will not accept a 1.25" spindle.

Is that a problem/limitation? I want to have access to the full range of cutters/tooling. I don't want to end up limited to specific manufacturers and/or price ranges. It'll be used in a one-man custom furniture shop, and I want to be able to use ALL shaper tooling appropriate to such work.

If anybody knows ANY reason NOT to buy this particular shaper, please SPEAK NOW or I will "forever hold the pieces"

Thanks

[Steve Clardy]

I have a powermatic. I just use a bushing. I've found most cutters for 1 1/4 spindles come with a bushing for 1".

[Bob Stroman]

Like you, I'm trying figure out which shaper to buy. It will be my first shaper, and I want it to spin router bits too. One comment a tooling dealer made about running 1-1/4" tooling on a smaller shaper is that the size of the table opening and fence opening can be a limitation.

I get the impression that one size shaper can not do it all unless you spend more than 3k for a variable speed (including faster than 10,000 rpm) machine with a tilting spindle and sliding table.

Also, budget a power feeder for consistency and safety. Speaking of budget, look out for all those various cutters you can buy.

How much does the ShopFox 3hp cost? I've been looking at Grizzly G1026, Delta 43-495X, Bridgewood and used. Not much single phase used out there.

Hopefully, someone who has owned 1 or more shapers will jump in here and give us some advice.

[Dev Emch]

Smaller shapers usually have a fixed 1/2 in or 3/4 in or 1 in spindle. Often you have to order interchangeable spindles although that option is becomming more of a standard these days.

The status quo spindle in the USA has been the 1.25 in spindle. Most industrial spindles were this size. In earlier days, you saw 1 1/8 in as a standard size. The standard size in Europe happens to be 30 mm and 40 mm with 50 mm used on heavy duty architectual cutters. The problem is that some of the coolest shaper cutters with interchangeable insert knives are all comming from Europe. Check out the cutters offered by Felder. Also look at the Leitz lexicon and the offerings from Gudo. So I would be equally interested in knowing if the shaper can be had with a 30 mm spindle these days.

Heavy duty shapers like the oliver 287 or greenlee or whitney or yates, etc. tend to have tables about 4 feet square with single drive speeds. I have seen a tiny number of these with step pulleys. For the most part, a 1.25 in cutter will spin at about 6000 to 9000 RPM with 8000 RPM being the design speed. Shapers using router bits should spin at about 10,000 RPM. Now you can order some shapers to go faster with top end speeds around 14,000 RPM but that is not advised unless you know what your doing. For example, some oliver 287 shapers were built to run at 20,000 RPM but these shapers had Bijur oil mist injection systems added to allow the bearings to run that fast. Most woodworking machines are bearing limited to 10,000 RPM esp. if your using grease as a lubricant. If your using oil mist injection, then you can spin upwards of 20,000 RPM with the correct belt and sheeve combination.

Shapers such as the Delta HD and powermatic 26 and 27 can easily utilize the 1.25 in interchangeable bearings if they support the option. The 1/2 in size and 3/4 in size are often used for tiny cutters to do edging detail such as 1/4 in beads, etc. Cope and stick work should be done using a 1.25 inch cutter. Now most 1.25 in cutters are going to have a cutting circle of about 4 to 5 inches. THis includes the freeborn pro series. Other cutters will be larger. My Leitz lock mitre cutter is about 6 or 7 inches in diameter and I have seen tenon cutters as large as 8 inches in diameter. So the cutter head size varies all over the board.

A more important question to resolve is this. How does the shaper system ensure concentricity with the insertion of the new spindle? Shapers that use thread on spindles are notorious for run out that can go as high as 15 thou or more. I refuse to work with a shaper that has a thread on spindle! Dont even ask! Other schemes often use a collet approach with a taper that ensures the spindle will force iteself into alignment on install. These often have large tapered sections using morse #4 or #5 tapers that insert into the spindle quill shaft of the shaper. My current shaper uses an HSK 80 collet system to do this. The HSK has a unique taper that works like the morse taper to force the spindle into perfect alignment. Some of the older olivers had a tapered section protruding from the spindle quill that accepted the spindle along with a draw bolt that ran out the top of the spindle. This system was bidirectional and very accurate.

Other approaches use full bore collets. In the collet system, the outside of the collet has the alignment taper and the inside of the collet has sections that can grasp a round shaft of predetermined diameter. Thus, when the draw bolt is tightened, the collet sucks downward and aligns with the spindle quill and pulls the straight shank of the spindle into alignment with itself at the same time. Once again, you have a tapered section forcing the centerline of the spindle into alignment and reducing or eliminating any concentricity errors.

My biggest issue with the cheaper shapers on the market these days is that they have poor spindle designs. Some are great and many are simply poor. Many shapers do not support interchangeable spindles and these are actually more accurate because they have no concentricity issues with a newly installed spindle.

Now, in many cases, you can utilize T bushings to fit a shaper cutter onto a shaper. For example, I can use a 1.25 inch cutter head on a shaper with a 1 inch spindle by using the appropriate T bushings. These bushings can be purchased from companies like Freeborn or Schmidt. But T bushings can get very delicate. For example, I have a set that takes a 1.25 inch cutter head and allows me to fit it onto a 30 mm spindle. That metal is very thin indeed! Also, T bushings do not work with stackable cutter heads. For example, if your using a 6 cutter cope and stick set from freeborn, you will need another solution for getting a pro series to fit a 1 in or 30 mm spindle.

Hope this helps a bit in your quest....

[Mark Riegsecker]

Thanks Dev, always helpful.

Tom, which ever brand of shaper you decide to purchase you can expect to pay $700 or more for a power feeder. I just got a General. Never having used a shaper before I made a trial cut using a raised panel router bit with very unsatisfactory results.

I'm looking to add a power feeder, and bought a few shaper cutters hoping this will increase the cutting results.

There seems to be a hundred different power feeders to choose from for woodworking machines from different distributors, at least the color is different. Three wheel, four wheel, two speed, to eight speed to variable speed I had no idea this $1000 machine was going to cost me $2000

Good luck and remember what they say when building a house, add 10% here you may want to add a bit more

[Tom Overthere]

Thanks for the advice, fellas. That's about how I had matters figured (and a power feeder is definitely in my future - sooner than later, I hope).

And Dev, I've been reading some of your posts throughout these forums. Man, you are one technically-oriented sunofagun. Thanks very much for the detailed information. It amounts to "more than I wanted to know" but only because a lot of it is information I wish were not true (sniff).

Of course, I value the insight provide by you and by other responders VERY much, as the purchases I make now will likely "haunt" me for the next decade or two (and correct choices made today may play a role in keeping all my fingers where they belong).

I'd love to know whether the ShopFox W1702 uses a collet or a threaded system for holding spindles - but I have no luck finding *anyone* online who owns/uses ShopFox brand machines(?).

The Grizzly G1026 appears to be (basically) the same machine, so can anybody tell me what method the G1026 uses to hold spindles?

[Shaun Wilson]

The G1026 comes with 1/2", 3/4", and 1" diameter spindles that attach using a drawbar through the bottom of the machine spindle. A separate spindle adapter is available for using 1/4" and 1/2" router bits. Search "G1026" at the Grizzly web site for lots more info. I believe the Shop Fox W1702 uses the same basic setup for the spindle. Here is a picture of the 3 spindles from G1026 manual that shows how they go together:
G1026-Spindles.gif

[tod evans]

tom, call the manufacturer with design questions. they should answer your questions. as for real world experience on this machine; i can`t help. tod

[Russ Massery]

Pretty much the picture above explains it. I have the smaller G1035 unit. My only complaint was there a lot of backlash in the mechanism that moves the spindle up and down.I was able to take most of it out. The other thing I'll point out is if you plan on using router bits on your shaper. They need two inches and larger because a shaper doesn't have enough speed to use them. The great thing about a shaper is it will run all day because of the induction motor. something you can't say for a router table. I would say buy the G1026.

[Shiraz Balolia]

Tom - the parts breakdown that Shaun has posted is also accurate for the Shop Fox.

If you look at one of the removable spindles, you will see a taper at the bottom that gets drawn into a mating female taper in the main spindle assembly (top of part 204). The tapered portion in the spindle (bottom of part 216) also has a groove, and the pin (part 222) fits in the groove preventing slippage of the spindle.

Regarding spindle speeds for using router bits, it all depends on the type of woods you are cutting. I routinely use a milling machine with a router bit in it at around 3500 RPM, but then I am routing (milling) hardwoods like Bubinga, Eastern rock maple, Ebony and so on. If you are doing a lot of softer woods, you would require faster speeds. This shaper has two spindle speeds, 7,000 and 10,000.

[Tom Overthere]

Shaun ==
'Can't thank you enough for providing an expanded diagram! This is one VERY helpful online community.

Todd ==
I probably will, but those guys are very nice over there, so I don't want to drive 'em nutz with too many of my "details" questions.

Russ and Shiraz ==
I think I'd rather have the ShopFox. Looks just like the Grizzly, but with a "big shiny wheel" on the frontand maybe a nicer fence + dust chute. As for HARDwood vs router bit size - how hard is "hard"? I don't have immediate plans for the exotics that Shiraz mentioned, nor do I expect to work in pine or fir, but there will be some POPLAR. If I use normal grade/species of oak, maple, cherry, birch etc, will I be able to run small router bits at 10,000 rpm?

Thanks VERY much for such useful information.

[Shiraz Balolia]

[quote=Tom Overthere]
I think I'd rather have the ShopFox. quote]

Darn - lost another one to Shop Fox!

You can always try the smaller router bit at 10,000 RPM to see if it will work with the particular type of wood. I think it will, but it is best to try on a scrap piece to see if the cut is smooth.

[Paul B. Cresti]

Guys what is the problem with router bits on a shaper????? I run router bits all the time on my shaper at 10,000 rpm. I have a MM T50 with a 3ph 6.6 hp motor and have no problem with burning. I have a big Steff feeder and my cuts are very consistant. Remember you control the feed rate! and thus you will dictate if the bit burns the wood no matter if it is a big shaper cutter or router bit.

[Jim Becker]

Darn - lost another one to Shop Fox!

LOL!!!!!!!!

[Brett Baldwin]

You heard him Shiraz....it's the "big shiny wheel." Gets them every time.