Blade Taper in Handsaws - Have a Mike Handy?

[Bruce Branson]

Maybe someone could test too identical saws with and without taper to see which one works the best for them.My Japanese saws miked the same thickness top to bottom and rip very well after I removed the excess set.They were very hard to start.

[Alan DuBoff]

Bob,

Thanks for posting this info. I for one think there is quite a bit to it, and saws were being made for several centuries at least, before many of the saws we use today were even made, and many of those are 100 years old.

Surely the saw makers have yester year have gone through most of this same analysis, in their own way, but we don't have them anymore to answer the questions that arise. Thanks for helping this though process Bob!

For those that aren't interested, why are they interested to post in the thread? Seems easier to move onto the next...

Regards,
Alan

[Gary BALCOM]

I made a few measurements on some of my handsaws this afternoon. I attached a photo of the locations of the measurements below.

Disston 22-inch 12 point Xcut
A = 0.021
B = 0.027
C = 0.039
D = 0.034
E = 0.037
F = 0.038

Looks like the toe is about 0.004 thinner than the heel, and the back is about 0.010 thinner than the cutting edge.

Disston D8 28-inch 5 point Rip
A = 0.028
B = 0.034
C = 0.038
D = 0.037
E = 0.041
F = 0.041

Looks like the toe is about 0.004 thinner that the heel, and the back is about 0.007 thinner than the cutting edge.

Warranted Superior 26-inch 8 point Rip
All measurement locations are 0.040 inch. No taper at all on this saw.


I guess those Disstons really are better than the Warren & Ted saws.

Tim,
I had to revive this thread as my first post on SmC. Do you find any difference in use between the not tapered warranted & superior, and any other similar saw? I'm really considering a hand tool only shop....this means I need a good rip saw...I noticed later in this thread Mike Wenzloff posted that his rip saws are not taper ground. If a top notch maker like that isn't taper grinding, it makes me question its usefulness. I also read a post on Adam Cherubini's site where he questions the taper grind as well. He claims his rectangular not tapered blades cut very well, because of the extra heft.

Long story short, I'm restored a diston D-23 to an 8 pt Rip. It's a nice saw, but I'm looking for something like a D-8 now. I'm also considering buying a blade from Two guys in a Garage, and making my own saw. any thoughts?


Quick back story; I've been in the career of woodworking since '97, so I know my way around a commercial shop. But, at my current home I don't have room for all of my power tools, so I'm looking to see what I can do by hand.

[Pete Taran]

This kind of witty banter reminds me of how the oldtools listserve got started back in the day. Not to add gasoline to the fire, but taper grinding, as many call it, absolutely was done out of necessity, not because of marketing hype. Consider the following.

Disston actually patented a process on Aug 29, 1876 (181,650) to roll the steel for his saws into a tapered blank, so they didn't need to be ground. The reason? It took a lot, and I mean a lot of work to grind all that steel away. If the taper grind was really optional, and only shrewd marketing, it's doubtful that he would have tried to recreate the wheel to do it better and faster. I'm sure part of it was his desire to save on high carbon steel. Even in 1876, it wasn't that easy to make, even though he had literally cornered the market on US production.

Stepping back even further, if a taper grind was a luxury, and not a necessity, would any of the earlier makers have bothered? I mean earlier than that, people worked long hours and did what they could to shave time and cost out of any product. Is it realistic to think that people would have spent a ton of time on something like that, which isn't even that noticeable unless you use a micrometer, if it weren't because it was absolutely necessary. Life was too short as it was to lay on a wooden catwalk suspended over a 6' diameter rotating grinding wheel. Those guys didn't live very long, that dust is nasty stuff in the lungs.

I'll add one more data point to the mix. The #12/112 was/is one of the best cutting saws in Disston's fleet. If anyone owns one and cuts with it, they understand what that thinner, stiffer blade and more tapered blade means in the cut. However, Disston had a saw which was even more tapered than that, the Acme 120 (and it's unembellished counterpart the #77). I dug one out, and using my Mitutoyo micrometer which is accurate to .00001 yields:

A .02060"
B .03010"
C .03685"
D .04515"
E .04240"
F .04150"

The idea was that the cutting edge would be relatively constant...as you can see above, it varies by only .0035" over the entire width of the cutting edge, about the thickness of a sheet of copy paper. But look at the relief you get from edge to back. In the toe, it's 50%!

That's some serious taper.

Happy Cutting,

Pete

[Jim Koepke]

Howdy Gary and welcome to the Creek. Not knowing where you are makes for a difficult answer on this.

If you work with mostly well dried hardwoods a taper on a rip saw might not be as important as it is for someone like me who often works with softwoods that are not fully dry. Short stock may also not need a taper as much as a long piece being ripped.

Many times I have had to insert a wedge in a cut that closed up due to wood movement during the cut.

jtk

[Ray Selinger]

You are talking about handsaws that are carpentry tools.When I did my apprenticeship they were still commonly in use. The ease or lack there of in cutting was very noticeable.Remember this was in the days before cheap and available generators.

[Glen Canaday]

Yeah, I was just reading the OP for the first time and wondering how the #12 got relegated to second-tier. Then later on I wondered where this ABCDEF thing came from, then I realized I couldn't see the attachment on my phone!

I've got accurate mics (I do machining on the side...er, for a living!) and I've got an Acme 120, several D8s 26" and 20", #7 26" and 18" panel, a 10" #4, a 26" #12, and a few others from Atkins and the like if anyone wanted to compare measurements. All are garage and estate finds and only a few have been restored, so ymmv when measuring over rust but I'll need to eventually see that thumbnail to give it all in alphabetical order.

[Rob Paul]

Odd that Pete's 120 is thicker at the toe than at the heel along the cutting edge ?. mine isn't
(for A/B/C = toe/mid/heel on back, D/E/F = toe/mid/heel on cutting edge)

[Glen Canaday]

Odd that Pete's 120 is thicker at the toe than at the heel along the cutting edge ?. mine isn't
(for A/B/C = toe/mid/heel on back, D/E/F = toe/mid/heel on cutting edge)

Thanks Rob. Now I won't need the picture anymore.

I'll hold off on the measurements until someone wants them. Measuring all those for comparison is not a two-second undertaking and requires taking notes, which I am horrible at.

[Gary BALCOM]

Howdy Gary and welcome to the Creek. Not knowing where you are makes for a difficult answer on this.

If you work with mostly well dried hardwoods a taper on a rip saw might not be as important as it is for someone like me who often works with softwoods that are not fully dry. Short stock may also not need a taper as much as a long piece being ripped.

Many times I have had to insert a wedge in a cut that closed up due to wood movement during the cut.

jtk

Thanks Jim,
I'm in South East, near Atlanta. I'll be working with dry stock, whether it had needles or leaves in it's past life. Mostly furniture. I think I'll keep my eye on ebay for a D-8 and go from there. I'd love one with a thumb hole, because I think they're neat.

[Glen Canaday]

If all dry stock, you can also include an Acme 120 in the mix, a D100, or an Atkins no 51. Each also had thumbholes as an option!

[Ron Bontz]

This kind of witty banter reminds me of how the oldtools listserve got started back in the day. Not to add gasoline to the fire, but taper grinding, as many call it, absolutely was done out of necessity, not because of marketing hype. Consider the following.

Disston actually patented a process on Aug 29, 1876 (181,650) to roll the steel for his saws into a tapered blank, so they didn't need to be ground. The reason? It took a lot, and I mean a lot of work to grind all that steel away. If the taper grind was really optional, and only shrewd marketing, it's doubtful that he would have tried to recreate the wheel to do it better and faster. I'm sure part of it was his desire to save on high carbon steel. Even in 1876, it wasn't that easy to make, even though he had literally cornered the market on US production.

Stepping back even further, if a taper grind was a luxury, and not a necessity, would any of the earlier makers have bothered? I mean earlier than that, people worked long hours and did what they could to shave time and cost out of any product. Is it realistic to think that people would have spent a ton of time on something like that, which isn't even that noticeable unless you use a micrometer, if it weren't because it was absolutely necessary. Life was too short as it was to lay on a wooden catwalk suspended over a 6' diameter rotating grinding wheel. Those guys didn't live very long, that dust is nasty stuff in the lungs.

I'll add one more data point to the mix. The #12/112 was/is one of the best cutting saws in Disston's fleet. If anyone owns one and cuts with it, they understand what that thinner, stiffer blade and more tapered blade means in the cut. However, Disston had a saw which was even more tapered than that, the Acme 120 (and it's unembellished counterpart the #77). I dug one out, and using my Mitutoyo micrometer which is accurate to .00001 yields:

A .02060"
B .03010"
C .03685"
D .04515"
E .04240"
F .04150"

The idea was that the cutting edge would be relatively constant...as you can see above, it varies by only .0035" over the entire width of the cutting edge, about the thickness of a sheet of copy paper. But look at the relief you get from edge to back. In the toe, it's 50%!

That's some serious taper.

Happy Cutting,

Pete

+1
If taper were not important, I would be making 22, 24, and 26" panel/ hand saws. But getting the taper right, with consistent repeatability, and cost effectively is a whole different animal. Enough said.

[Mike Holbrook]

You make a nice 20" saw Ron:

click to enlarge:
Miter saw table.jpg

Yes, I finally took the time to get my Stanley #150 miter box adjusted correctly. I was concerned that it would damage the saw. I sawed a bunch of 1x 4 with it recently without getting a scratch on it, so my concerns were unfounded. Nice saw, doubt my restored MF Langdon 74C will see much use now. The MF has to be twice as heavy and even with a 26" saw, saws slower than my Stanley #150 with the Bontz 20" saw.

I would post a picture of my "Mike" halfback saw too but I built it from a kit and do not want to embarrass Mike with my lesser handle making skills.

Gary I live in Alpharetta/Metro Atlanta, for at least a little longer, and have a few old Disston, Atkins and Simmonds saws you could try. I am still working on my saw tuning and sharpening skills so I can't guarantee they all work flawlessly.

[Gary BALCOM]

You make a nice 20" saw Ron:

click to enlarge:
Miter saw table.jpg

Yes, I finally took the time to get my Stanley #150 miter box adjusted correctly. I was concerned that it would damage the saw. I sawed a bunch of 1x 4 with it recently without getting a scratch on it, so my concerns were unfounded. Nice saw, doubt my restored MF Langdon 74C will see much use now. The MF has to be twice as heavy and even with a 26" saw, saws slower than my Stanley #150 with the Bontz 20" saw.

I would post a picture of my "Mike" halfback saw too but I built it from a kit and do not want to embarrass Mike with my lesser handle making skills.

Gary I live in Alpharetta/Metro Atlanta, for at least a little longer, and have a few old Disston, Atkins and Simmonds saws you could try. I am still working on my saw tuning and sharpening skills so I can't guarantee they all work flawlessly.

Mike,
Thank you for your offer. I'd be happy to take you up on it. We just moved here almost 3 years ago from rural upstate new york, and I haven't exactly blended in with the locals yet. We're in Buford, not too far from you. I'd be happy to take any tips on saw tuning I can. I just got the picture to open...Your saw in the miter box is a work of art!!