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Thread: Tormek vs Scheppach Sharpening Systems

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  1. #1

    Tormek vs Scheppach Sharpening Systems

    Well with all the talk about the recent Tormek withdraw from Amazon and the varied opinions about this situation, I have decided to see what the grass looks like on the other side of the fence. With that, the obvious choice to me for a sharpening system alternate to the "T" is the German built Scheppach TiGer 2000. So, does anyone own one of these units and what is your opinion of it if you do. Have you ever seen one in person. I think the blue stone opinions does potentially have some merit. (Better for HSS sharpening).

    Hartville Tool is have a 15% of sale on their sharpening systems in March and I am starting to get the itch to finally buy something. I had always thought I would go with the "T" but sometimes a free market place has to be given consider and the consumer makes the choice. (At least for me).
    Thanks in advance for your comments, experiences or regrets with the Scheppach TiGer 2000. Believe me, I already know the reputation of the Tormek.
    The truth is always visible but often not seen.
    Measure twice, and cut--WAIT!-- better measure again then cut once, twice or whatever it takes to fit.

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Olathe, Kansas (Kansas City)
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    1,550
    I bought one in December when they had the 20% off sale. I have not used it much, but it does support many of the brand T jigs. I bought the T brand wood turnings kit, eveyrthing works but the honing wheel (different sized shaft).

    The wheel is smaller on brand S, so you'll have more hollow grind. In general I am pleased with the performance. Heck, i even used the brand T cover for brand S. I am thinking maybe some babies are in the future.

    Anyways, for me I was able to get the grinder, pretty much all the jigs I will use for under $400. Not bad considering folks have spent well over $800 to deck out brand T.

    I was able to easily shave the hair off of my arm ont he chisels which usually is sharp enough for me.
    Scott C. in KC
    Befco Designs

  3. #3

    Deep vs Shallow Hollow Grind?

    What are the effects (in regards to woodworking) of a deeper hollow grind? I understand the principal on the tool but not sure of the user impact? Maybe you have a sharper curve at the cutting edge which does what?

    Thanks
    The truth is always visible but often not seen.
    Measure twice, and cut--WAIT!-- better measure again then cut once, twice or whatever it takes to fit.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Shoreline, CT
    Posts
    2,923
    The hollow grind will disappear in fewer honings if it is shallow. Perhaps the edge is slightly better supported with a shallow hollow grind.

    By the way, Scheppach makes a 2500 model that has a wheel very similar in size to the Tormek, but at a higher price than the 2000 model. Don't know if that is imported here or not. I saw it on a UK sellers site.

  5. I viewed the demo's on the T at sharptoolsusa, and I'm a little concerned about the way you "break the grit down but not away from the binder" with a stone when you go to remove the scratches from the coarser wheel. It makes the coarse stone fine. Does the Scheppach sharpening system use the same technique?

    For some reason, this just seems hokey to me. How do you renew the wheel for coarse grinding? Grind off some of the wheel with the stone again?

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Frank Hagan
    For some reason, this just seems hokey to me. How do you renew the wheel for coarse grinding? Grind off some of the wheel with the stone again?
    Yup, you are correct. These systems come with a "stone grader" that allows you the "change" the grit of the stone from coarse to fine and back again.

  7. Using the Tormek stone grader as it is called is simple, effective and doesn't take but a second or two. This does not wear any apprciable amount off the stone wheel.

    I have used my Tormek for years--and it is used a lot by my wife, a turner. More gets worn away truing the wheel, but no more and probably less than a carefully refreshed high speed dry grinding system.

    The stone grader has a coarse and fine side. Want the wheel coarse? A couple seconds with the coarse side of the stone grader. Want it fine? Likewise with the fine side.

    I grew up with grinding systems, from water wheel systems [i.e. large] to stone wheels operated via treadles [still got one from the family built in the late 1800s] to most every type of industrial and shop dry grinders. The Tormek is a good piece of equipment, built to last your lifetime.

    For me it is worth every penny I paid--and my wife thinks so also. Does this mean I can take a plane blade direct from it? Maybe my scrubs, but not much else. A minute to correct hand honing errors that creep in over time and a few seconds on a 4k and 8k stone finishes them off.

    For turning or carving tools? It's great. Lunch-box planer knives and jointer blades are a snap. Follow the fine grading with the leather wheel and they are incredible. Worried about the hollow grinding? No problem. Just use the Tormek at a couple degrees higher than you would with a flat platter, SS or stones. This makes the bevel at the edge actually meet at the "proper angle. Finish off with a couple swipes on a stone for a great edge.

    I have used the Tormek for hours at a time. It is well built.

    Take care, Mike

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Dennis Collins
    Well with all the talk about the recent Tormek withdraw from Amazon and the varied opinions about this situation, I have decided to see what the grass looks like on the other side of the fence. With that, the obvious choice to me for a sharpening system alternate to the "T" is the German built Scheppach TiGer 2000. So, does anyone own one of these units and what is your opinion of it if you do. Have you ever seen one in person. I think the blue stone opinions does potentially have some merit. (Better for HSS sharpening).
    Dennis, let me preface this response by acknowledging that I make my living selling TORMEK sharpening systems. Your thread seems like the best opportunity to put the cards on the table about how the Scheppach copy cat machine stacks up to the TORMEK.

    Scheppach approached us at the IWF in Atlanta in 2004, trying to lure us away from TORMEK demonstration with the promise of an equal product at a better price. Now, I have been working against price objections for 13 years, and the idea of having a price advantage for once, certainly had some appeal. However, the old saying, "You get what you pay for" could not be more appropriate when you critically compare the two systems. Which I did before telling Scheppach, "No thanks".

    First let's examine the stone size and potential life. A little background for the US readers is in order first. In Europe, TORMEK sells two machines. The Model 2000 is exactly like the Model 2000 sold here in the USA - 250mm grindstone and 200mm honing wheel. The Model 1200 has a 200mm grindstone and a 145mm honing wheel. The most important point to note is that the frames are completely different designs. The 1200 is not sold in the USA for several reasons. Chief among them is the fact that by the time you rewire the motor for 110VAC 60Hz power, and ship them 4,000 miles, the price difference shrinks to the point that the 1200 loses all its appeal.

    When Scheppach copied the TORMEK, they decided to offer two versions, as well. But, they are using the same frame for both large and small diameter systems. If they were offering the 250mm system in the USA, the price difference between a Sceppach and TORMEK would be so insignificant that no one would bite. So, they are selling their 200mm version here. By putting a 200mm grindstone on a frame designed for a 250mm grindstone, you greatly limit the amount of stone that can be used before you start having interference from other parts of the machine. To quantify this, it is 3-3/4" from the surface of a new TORMEK stone to the frame. It is 1-5/16" from the surface of a new Scheppach stone to the frame. Many people view the difference between the 10 inch TORMEK and 8 inch Scheppach stones as insignificant. But, when you actually look at the frames and their relationship to the stones, it becomes apparent that TORMEK offers nearly three times more usable stone! The grindstone is also 20% narrower (40mm compared to 50mm) That means that the surface is going to be working harder and breaking down quicker, thus contributing to the problem outlined above.

    As far as their stone being better suited to HSS, I won't call anyone to prove that, because I truly doubt anyone who has first hand knowledge of the stone's design or manufacture could be reached by this forum to justify that statement. In my understanding of bonded abrasives, if they're saying that the stone cuts HSS faster than the TORMEK, then the stone will wear faster than the TORMEK stone, too. To cut faster, you have to have a more open grain structure, and that means faster wear. The converse of this is that the grading system, which Scheppach has also tried to copy, is most effective at exactly the grain size, bonding density, and porosity of the TORMEK grindstone. See Fine Woodworking's article this month. Tim Albers found that the Scheppach grindstone, when graded, left significantly heavier scratches than the TORMEK grindstone.

    A less obvious, but very functional difference between the two grindstones is the lack of the recessed center found on the TORMEK stone. The recessed center lets you use the side of the stone to lap the backs of tool without depositing dross on the machine axle or wadding up the label. The raised surface can also be refinished and maintained flat. While a stone without the recess can be used a few times for lapping, eventually the surface will start showing more wear on the outside, and cannot be flattened.

    With regard to power: One of TORMEK's original patents was their unique drive system. Scheppach has done a very poor job of copying the design. Hundreds of thousands of woodworkers -- many of them contributors here on SMC -- have watched me put the vast majority of my 240 pound weight against the grindstone of a TORMEK while it is running. I can stop a Scheppach with two fingers.

    The TORMEK Universal Tool Support has included a micro-adjuster for the last couple of years. That feature has been awarded a design patent, so you won't see it on the Scheppach until the patent expires and they can copy that, too.

    Scheppach copied the original AngleMaster, which TORMEK replaced 6 or 7 years ago. Instead of 4 pre-set angles that are only accurate when the stone is full-sized, the new Pro AngleMaster compensates for changes in stone diameter and allows you to accurately set any angle between 15 and 75 degrees.

    A TORMEK comes with a hardcover Owner's Handbook with over 500 illustrations and step-by-step instructions. It also has a 23 minute video and a toll free number where you can get personalized help, if you need it. The Scheppach comes with a few pages of typewritten text that has been photocopied.

    Three times more usable stone, vastly greater power delivery, true dual grit function, lapping for the life of the stone, micro-adjuster for angle adjustment, versatile and accurate angle setting, and outstanding documentation and technical support. Not opinion, fact.

    TORMEK pioneered water-cooled sharpening. They recognize that competition is inevitable. That is why they are constantly working to update, upgrade and improve the system. It is admirable that every improvement that has been introduced can be retrofitted to machines built 20 years ago. Personally, I would have more respect for Scheppach if their copy had even one design modification that could be viewed as an advantage or improvement. As it is, I just can't see how anyone could carefully compare the two systems and decide that saving one Franklin would be worth what you give up by choosing the Scheppach.

  9. #9
    Since I have only seen the Tormek system and never having seen the Scheppach I apprecaite the fact that you have taken the time to compare the two. Especially the fact that you had the opportunity to sell the Scheppach and have chosen not to. Thanks again.
    I can pay retail anywhere, so how's your service?
    Grabbing defeat from the jaws of victory one project at a time
    Maker of precision cut firewood


  10. #10
    Thanks Jeff...respect for you and what you do grows.
    Glenn Clabo
    Michigan

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Monroe, MI
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    11,896
    Thank you for the fact-based analysis Jeff. Is there anything on the brand S machine that you think is is better implemented than brand T?

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Meiser
    Thank you for the fact-based analysis Jeff. Is there anything on the brand S machine that you think is is better implemented than brand T?
    No.

    Jeff Farris
    SharpToolsUSA

  13. #13
    jeff, my thanks for the informative expose.....tod

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Long Beach, CA
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    Thanks Jeff for the side by side comparison. I also compared the two a while back and I think I remeber that the Scheppach spun at a faster RPM. Is that true also?
    John

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
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    Olathe, Kansas (Kansas City)
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    Thanks Jeff for the info, sounds like you have a good grasp of the two.

    With that said, I still am very pleased with the S brand and will be happy with it for many years to come. I don't see me putting 240lbs of pressure on it, but if I needed to I guess I'll buy the T brand. I guess when brand T decides that the average guy can't justify a $800 system, well maybe i'll look into it.... assuming my S goes bad. I guess in 10 years when I need to buy a new wheel, I'll wish I had had bought a T brand so it would have been 30 years.

    I will totally agree the manual on the S brand lacks in all ways ( man it's been a long time since I have seen a manual this poor, but hey if I read German it would be just as poor0, good thing is I downloaded the T brand manual for free from their website and it pretty much tells me what I want to know for the cost of a paper and ink.

    Anyways, for those looking, obviously the choice is yours to make. Sounds like the T still is the cadillac of slow speed wet grinders, but IMHO the S. Tiger ain't bad.
    Scott C. in KC
    Befco Designs

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