Please help. Going NUTS! -- Jointer

[Jeff Pilcher]

Is there an advantage to using a jointer over a thickness planer for this type of work?

[Jim Becker]

Is there an advantage to using a jointer over a thickness planer for this type of work?

Excellent question.

If you don't joint one face flat and an ajoining face perpendicular to that original face, you cannot get a square component when you use the thickness planer to do the other two sides. Planers will only make two opposing faces parallel, but will not insure that the other two faces make a square...you would end up essentially with a parallelogram or a trapezoid, depending on how those other faces are oriented to their ajoining surfaces.

[Jeff Pilcher]

Thanks for the quick response Jim.

From Lincoln's original post it sounded as if he was trying to get flat faces for face gluing to create a post.

The reason for my question is that I will be doing exactly that very soon. I have been saving my milk money for years so I could buy a thickness planer thinking it was the only way to get flat boards (I recently got the Dewalt 734).

Now, after reading this thread, I am wondering if a thickness planer might not give a truly flat face. The engineer in me is thinking that the feed rollers might distort the shape of the board during planing and it might spring back to a non-flat state after it leaves the planer.

Are people using a jointer to dress the face of a board because ...
It is the best choice to achieve the desired result ... or ... that is the tool they have?

[Jim Becker]

Jeff, in the end, you'll want both a jointer and a thicknesser...they do different things. In the short run, many folks like having the planer in their shop and use other methods to deal with making edges straight and perpendicular to the face, including hand planes, a router table setup with a split fence, etc. Using a sled and light cuts, you can use the planer to "flatten" boards that are reasonably workable. The combination allows you to compensate for the roller pressure effect you mention. (There is another relatively current thread here at SMC that discusses this)

Are people using a jointer to dress the face of a board because ...
It is the best choice to achieve the desired result ... or ... that is the tool they have?

Flattening the face of a board is one of the essential uses of a jointer. You're really not "dressing" it per se, but making it flat. It is likely that same face will also see the planer knives after you process the other side in the planer to make the faces parallel as it's always a good practice to take about the same amount of material off both sides. And then you start with the other tools that finalize the "finish" on the wood surface...

Now, after reading this thread, I am wondering if a thickness planer might not give a truly flat face.

The planer can only make two opposite surfaces parallel. If the "bottom" (guide) surface that rides on the planer bed isn't flat...is twisted, cupped, bowed, etc...the surface you cut on the top will essentially mirror that when it comes out the other side. If the board is "almost on", careful technique will result in a "pretty flat" board. For truly wonderful fitting joinery, the jointer (or hand-techniques that do the same thing) will make for a happy craftsman. It's really eye opening sometimes!<!-- / message --><!-- sig -->

[Ted Shrader]

Jeff -

The jointer will make a flat face (or edge). The reference for flattening a face is the table of the jointer. The knives are in the same plane. For squaring an edge, the reference is the flat face (now against the fence). Assuming the fence is perpendicular to the table, anyway.

A planer, on the other hand uses as its reference, the opposite face of the board that it is cutting. The face that rides against the planer table. The output of the planer is two parallel faces. If you start with rough wood and at the planer, the faces may not necessarily be flat, but they are parallel to each other. That is the reason for starting at the jointer. - to flatten a face before thicknessing the wood.

Ted

[Ted Shrader]

Interesting aside - This thread was started July 16, 2003 and was resurrected by a new member with a question. Isn't it great to have such an easily workable and accessible forum format? Thanks Keith, Aaron, Jackie, et al!

Jeff -

Like Jim says, you will want both a jointer and a planer. They are a complementary pair. Think of the planer as a thicknesser/dresser and the jointer as the straightener.

Regards,
Ted

[Renardo Subrosa]

Interesting aside - This thread was started July 16, 2003 and was resurrected by a new member with a question. Isn't it great to have such an easily workable and accessible forum format? Thanks Keith, Aaron, Jackie, et al!
...
Regards,
Ted

Hi Ted,

Not meaning to be argumentative but when I responded to an old thread, it wasn't obvious to me that it WAS an old thread. I guess with a bit more experience in this SMC board by vBulletin I will find it easy but the fact that I missed that likely means others find it less than obvious too. But I do genetally like what I see here at SMC.

Best to all,
Reny

[Jeff Pilcher]

This is really interesting, thanks everyone for the responses. I did not realize this thread was that old either.

I have definitely learned something in this thread. I would never have thought to use the jointer to flatten the face of a board. Perhaps because I only have a 4" jointer (Shopsmith assessory) and I consider it too narrow to be of much use for face jointing. I have used the jointer to square edges of boards for making panels many times. I also never considered that a thickness planer would not flatten a board. Most of my projects start out with store bought dimensional lumber and I do not recall having used boards that were noticably cupped (but I never thought to check too carefully either). I guess I'll be more aware of this now.

Thanks everyone. I can feel my level of craftsmanship improving already.

[Bart Leetch]

[QUOTE=Jeff Pilcher]This is really interesting, thanks everyone for the responses.
I would never have thought to use the jointer to flatten the face of a board.

Jeff even with a 4" jointer you could face joint material for face frames for cabinets.

This would allow you to use rough planed material. You can set you jointer to take 1/32" off & edge joint 1 edge then face joint 1 side Then go to your table-saw & rip the un-jointed edge to with in 1/32" & with the jointed edge down rip the un jointed side to with in 1/32" & then go back to the jointer & edge & face joint the side & edge you just ripped. This takes a little time to do but if your like me you have more time than money.

I do have a portable planer so I finish the last side on the planer.

[Jim Becker]

You can set you jointer to take 1/32" off & edge joint 1 edge then face joint 1 side...

Best to face joint (the widest surface) first so that when you do your edge, you have a surface that is easy to keep against the fence and so that the edge is truly perpendicular to the flattened face.

[Jeff Pilcher]

OK, here is what I have determined from the information so far.

1. Rough saw to over desired width (maybe 1/4" oversize).
2. Joint FACE #1
3. Joint EDGE #1 (with FACE #1 against the jointer fence).
4. Saw width to just over size (maybe 1/32" oversize).
5. Joint EDGE #2 until final width is achieved (with FACE #1 against the jointer fence).
6. Thickness plane FACE #2 to achieve desired thickness.

I do have both a jointer and a portable thickness planer, so I think I can get this done.

Again, I would never have thought this was necessary. I would have blindly run the boards through the thickness planer on both sides until I got the thicknness I wanted. Then, I would have gone to the jointer to square up the edges.

These are exactly the kind of tips I have been needing to bring my work to the next level.

Thanks again.

[Jim Becker]

You got it, Jeff!!

[Norman Hitt]

OK, here is what I have determined from the information so far.

1. Rough saw to over desired width (maybe 1/4" oversize).
2. Joint FACE #1
3. Joint EDGE #1 (with FACE #1 against the jointer fence).
4. Saw width to just over size (maybe 1/32" oversize).
5. Joint EDGE #2 until final width is achieved (with FACE #1 against the jointer fence).
6. Thickness plane FACE #2 to achieve desired thickness.

I do have both a jointer and a portable thickness planer, so I think I can get this done.

Again, I would never have thought this was necessary. I would have blindly run the boards through the thickness planer on both sides until I got the thicknness I wanted. Then, I would have gone to the jointer to square up the edges.

These are exactly the kind of tips I have been needing to bring my work to the next level.

Thanks again.

Well, here comes "Ole Norm" having to Disagree a little. My problem is with step #5.

My problem, is that after 1 or more passes over the jointer with edge 2, most likely, edge 2 will No Longer be parallel to edge # 1, as "Each trip" over the jointer will most likely "Taper" the board somewhat.

This can be correctly accomplished, however, by standing 1 or more of these identical pieces with edge #1 down on the "PLANER" bed, (Not jointer), and then make passes until desired thickness/width is achieved by planing off the top of edge #2, and the two edges WILL then be parallel and of uniform thickness throughout it's length. (Note This procedure would Not be for Wide boards for glueup, but for narrow finish pieces like Face Frame pieces, Rails/stiles, etc.

Check me out Jim, & see if I stated this right & didn't get it twisted around, as some of this "Crud Medicine" has me kinda "Fuzzy" today..

[Chris DiCiaccio]

1-Joint face #1
2-Thickness Plane face #2
3-Now we can put either face against the jointer fence to joint edge #1. My point is that we have a choice of which face goes against the fence to favor wood grain to prevent tear-out on #1 edge.
4-Use table saw to get width
5-Back to jointer for 2nd edge, with again, two choices of faces for the fence to favor wood grain and avoid tear-out.

Any comments welcome, just trying to learn.

[Norman Hitt]

1-Joint face #1
2-Thickness Plane face #2
3-Now we can put either face against the jointer fence to joint edge #1. My point is that we have a choice of which face goes against the fence to favor wood grain to prevent tear-out on #1 edge.
4-Use table saw to get width
5-Back to jointer for 2nd edge, with again, two choices of faces for the fence to favor wood grain and avoid tear-out.

Any comments welcome, just trying to learn.

That looks good to me, Chris, with all the right options. I've used this method more often than the Joint one face, then straighten one one edge method, (whether using jointer or saw to straighten that edge). It just depends on the situation, for me.