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Thread: Newbie question verneer core plywood vs. mdf core plywood

  1. #1
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    Newbie question verneer core plywood vs. mdf core plywood

    Been lurking and absorbing a bunch of info over the last few months and finally have a question I haven't found already discussed. So, my first post...

    Just working on the finish for the sewing center I build for my wife (for her masters degree graduation last may...hey, everything in it's time). Anyhow, with this wrapping up, I'm working on securing materials to make the next project. It's a TV stand/entertainment center and I'm sort of winging the design based on a picture from the Crutchfield catalog. So, no materials list which means I have to make it up...



    Anyhow, I just found a local source for all kinds of plywood...more kinds than I ever even knew existed! I need some sort of plywwod for the sides (using solid cherry on top with some cleats underneath and using cheap leftover birch ply for the bottom and internal supports since I won't ever see them). One option is to get MDF core cherry plywood. Or I can use regular cherry ply. MDF core is a bit cheaper but I've never used it like plywood...only as plain MDF. Any thoughts? Other than price, why would someone use MDF core plywood vs. the regular stuff? I'm going to buy a full sheet and have a bunch left over of whatever I buy. Though saving a few bucks is always good, I want to be sure what I have left over is usable down the road.

    Thoughts?

    Tim Q

  2. #2
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    MDF core plywood is more consistent in thickness - both within a single sheet and from sheet to sheet. The consistency of a good veneer core typically isn't a problem when used to construct the pictured furniture though.

    Veneer core plywood will tend to have better 'elasticity' than mdf core. That is, when stressed/bent, the plywood gives more before irreversibly cracking than mdf will. It will also sag less than mdf but given a face frame on the front and a supporting rear rail, the top in the pictured furniture won't suffer from sagging with 3/4 mdf core or 3/4 veneer core.

    If you plan on keeping your audio equipment behind closed doors such as pictured, be sure to engineer in some ventilation. Heat will fry electronics quite quickly. You should also notice they put feet directly underneath the 4 vertical supports....transferring any heavy loads directly to the floor. Personally, I would hope you go for inset doors and remember to size the stiles and top rails a bit more narrow and the bottom rail a bit wider, amongst a myriad of other 'design' details I'd change.

    ---edit---

    Forgot to mention than veneer core will also hold metal fasteners much better than mdf core.
    Last edited by Tim Sproul; 01-24-2006 at 12:48 AM.
    Tim


    on the neverending quest for wood.....

  3. #3
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    The MDF Core will be quite a bit heavier than the Vaneer Core Plywood also, but maybe not a problem in this design if you are only going to use it on the two ends on this project.
    "Some Mistakes provide Too many Learning Opportunities to Make only Once".

  4. #4
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    Hi Tim...
    Welcome to SMC....

    You should do what you think is best but I will give you my jaded opinion.

    First, I hate MDF. Its sawdust held together with spit. Actually, they use a matrix that binds the wood particles together that produces a ton of fine dust when cut. This dust is both bad for you health wise and it stinks. Sorta like my lab when he comes in from the muck pond. MDF cannot hold a fastner for beans. And what do they put in this stuff... metal filings from toyota and hundai? The stuff weighs a ton! Its got the strength of an old surgar cookie and falls apart with moisture exposure like that same cookie thrown in milk.

    Why use it? First of all, its super cheap. ITs the basis for all el-cheesemo furniture and cabinets. Second, it does have dimensional stability. I will give it that. I have also seen it used to make raised panel furniture like oak filing cabinets. Folks, you need to read the fine print! The MDF panel is sent through the standard shaper process using the same tooling to produce a raised panel. Then, they have a set of dies in which the panel is droped into the bottom followed by an extremely thin sheet of oak veneer. Of course, where would you be without the glue stuff. Anyway, this is pressed together under many many tons of pressure. What comes out is a killer looking panel. It fooled me the first time I saw it. You see, when you raise a panel, the raising process cuts the profile into the wood thereby exposing the inner grain structure which runs throught solid wood and is a dead giveway that this panel was made from solid wood. But you would be wrong. The way in which that veneer follows the contour of the panel gives the effect of the grain running throughout the solid wood. Very clever. IT was not until I saw the back side that I saw the panel was MDF based. Now I know better and I look under the skirts to make sure its the real McCoy.

    In doing high end cabinet work, I have settled on using baltic birch exclusively. Furthermore, I use solid wood when I can get away with it. Often, when I need panel goods, the job requires some freakish wood whoose name I cannot pronounce and one I hope is not on some sierria club endangered list. Not a candiadate for prefab mdf core veneer sheet goods. For example, when using quarter sawn white oak with high density fleck. A rotary veneer slicer will not produce the correct grain pattern for this type of wood and effect. Thus, the final layer must be resawn and vacuum laminated to a substrate of baltic birch.

    It sounds like a pain but its the only way to control quality and ensure you get the visual effects your after. Also, birch by itself makes an excellent light color interior secondary wood. The surface grain pattern on baltic birch has no wild cathedral grain patterns which result from rotary cutters and it works very well.

    Because baltic birch is made from a high number of good quality birch veneers layed at orthogonal angles, you wind up with a product that works like solid wood but has extremely good stability for use in items like carcus sides.

    The swarf is about the same as that from solid wood and the DC picks it up with ease. It does not remain airbourne and need a class 10 clean room air filter to remove it. And it does not stink like osb or mdf.

    Lastly, I never throw any baltic birch out. What does not go into the job goes into jigs and fixtures and shop fittings and-and-and... ITs extremely versatile and virtually every morscle can be put to good use.

    Hope this helps a little...
    Had the dog not stopped to go to the bathroom, he would have caught the rabbit.

  5. #5
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    If my supplier is out of stock on mdf core cherry ply, I wait till he gets some in, rather than use veneer core. VC has two major advantages, its much lighter and it has greater linear strength. There are cases where these issues matter, but for most cabinetry the mdf is a better choice. It has no voids or striated wood grain under the face, just perfectly smooth, dense and consistant support everywhere. I am always hearing how badly it holds screws, but this just isn't true. A thoughtfully chosen screw and properly pre-drilled screw hole will yield a very strong connection. The dust must be handled just like all wood dust, none of which is good for you to breathe.

    I like to use VC ply with solid nosing for shelves, and sometimes carcase parts with no exterior face. MDF core for everything else. Its nice that it costs less than VC, but I'd use it even if it cost more. Remember also, the quality of these materials may not be the same in all locations. I've had really nice VC core, and really bad mdf core too. But in my area generally, the mdf core is my choice.

  6. #6
    tim, devs on the money as far as mdf being nasty and the best way is to laminate your own panels using baltic as the substraight. but for off the shelf sheetgoods in a dry enviorment i prefer an mdf core to a plywood core for two reasons, 1] it is the actual dimention you buy, 3/4 5/8 etc, and 2] it finishes without telegraphing the substraight veneer .......02 tod

    how unobservant of me! welcome tim.
    Last edited by tod evans; 01-24-2006 at 11:06 AM.

  7. #7
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    Welcome to the 'Creek!!!!

    I have a good friend who makes his living making cabinetry like this for use in folks homes as well as schools, etc. He pretty much works exclusively in MDF core material and his results are outstanding. Yes, it's heavier, but as stated by Tim, it's more consistant in thickness and dimension from plywood.

    Due to the nature of the core, how you build will be important. Russ, my friend, tends to edge band first and then build using dados and rabbits. His work looks remarkably like solid stock for that reason and gets great strength from the extra glue surfaces since he avoids mechanical fasteners anywhere they can be seen. Glue blocks strategically placed also can strengthen a joint without resorting to screws and nails.
    --

    The most expensive tool is the one you buy "cheaply" and often...

  8. #8
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    Tom, welcome to Saw Mill Creek and thanks for the question. Even though I have done woodworking for many many many years, I am learning from the answers. I really don't like MDF and haven't used it in a project for a long time; but I have learned that there might (just might) be a role for it in my future projects.
    Last edited by Frank Pellow; 01-24-2006 at 11:38 AM.

  9. #9
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    I use mdf almost exclusively in my carcass construction.

    As has been said it is flat and stable and machines well. screws in the face hold well while those in the edges must be used with care. My joinery of choice has been butt joint with biscuits and not dadoes. Just what I'm used to doing. I've never had a failure with the biscuits and I've done some testing to destruction of various joints.
    There are as many options with veneer as with solid wood when it comes to grain. Flatsawn, rift, quartered, and of course rotary as seen on many backs and the cheaper faces.
    granted the material is heavy and the dust is considerable but I still like it for it's working properties. If you are doing paintgrade it can't be beat. super smooth finish with no woodgrain showing through ever.
    Steve Jenkins, McKinney, TX. 469 742-9694
    Always use the word "impossible" with extreme caution

  10. #10
    I myself do not use MDF or PB in my cabinet business.
    I use strickly veener core plywood.


  11. #11
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    Thanks so much for all the great input. Not sure which way to go but having all these pros and cons laid out is a help. What a great board.

    Thanks again.

    TQ

  12. #12
    Tim,
    If your not used to using MDF, I would use veneer core ply. Granted the MDF is dead flat smooth, it takes some precautions when inserting screws. The mdf as it sets, in storage will absorb moisture to the edges, requiring you to trim off a small amount to get a flat edge. Most that use mdf, don't have this problem, they use it up in a matter of a few weeks or months.

    Also, Tim, remember the ply whether mdf or veneer core will stain or finish up a little bit different shade or color than your solids. You can compensate for this with stain or glaze.
    Furniture...the Art of a FurnitureMaker.

  13. #13
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    Earl,

    Thanks for the heads up on the finishing. I was planning to start finishing the sewing cabinet project this evening and my wife decided just a few coats of polly would be good rather than stain and polly like usual. I guess I should test a scrap of ply first to see how different it is since I used both ply and solid wood in the cabinet. May have to use a bit of stain afterall.

    Thanks.
    TQ

  14. #14
    I am in the process of building more cabs for attic. Could you tell me your "thoughtful choice of screws" and your "predrill" process? btw, where do you get the MDF core Ply in New England? Hopefully in MA.

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