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Thread: European Shop - What does it mean?

  1. #1
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    European Shop - What does it mean?

    I posted earlier asking technical questions about the MM16. The salesman told us that in a European shop, the Bandsaw is the central piece in the shop; all others - inclduing the TS - are merely supplemental. He went so far as to say that the only thing he uses his TS for is for sheet goods.

    Are there resources where I can learn more about the "European style?"

    My experience with the BS is very limited; I probably have 10 minutes on any bandsaw, total.

    That being said, I know that the BS is much more versitile that merely cutting curves and resawing. Is there a good resource on tips, tricks and techniques on the BS? I saw a couple of books on Amazon (Lonnie Byrd's was a quick find), but my impression was that these books were geared more towards how to buy a BS than how to get the most/best use of it.

    Thanks,
    John

  2. #2
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    John, I think if you do a search for posts by Ian Barly (I think that is correct on his last name) you may be able to get a feel for European shops. The feeling I get is that the EC equivalent of OHSA has pretty much done away with table saws that resemble what we are use to, therefore sliders and combo machines are what's left and the cost makes band saws the affordable tool. A number of European hobbyist seem to have adopted Festool for sheet work as an affordable alternative. I'm sure someone more knowledgeable than I will check in with more answers.
    Good, Fast, Cheap--Pick two.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Hulett
    I posted earlier asking technical questions about the MM16. The salesman told us that in a European shop, the Bandsaw is the central piece in the shop; all others - inclduing the TS - are merely supplemental. He went so far as to say that the only thing he uses his TS for is for sheet goods.

    Are there resources where I can learn more about the "European style?"

    My experience with the BS is very limited; I probably have 10 minutes on any bandsaw, total.

    That being said, I know that the BS is much more versitile that merely cutting curves and resawing. Is there a good resource on tips, tricks and techniques on the BS? I saw a couple of books on Amazon (Lonnie Byrd's was a quick find), but my impression was that these books were geared more towards how to buy a BS than how to get the most/best use of it.

    Thanks,
    John
    John...
    I have been talking with a gentleman in england and he has explained some of this in exteme detail. Before you jump to conclusions about which approach is better, you need to understand what they have to deal with. The european shop which includes the english shops are under exteme regulations. And these are influenceing the choice of machines and the tooling as well as future designs.

    For example, you have the dado blade. Dado blades are not illegal persay but other rules virtually make them that way. Table saws must have DC brakes to stop them in 10 seconds or less. This can cause a dado arbor to thread loss and throw its iron creating ninja stars on steriods. Secondly, you have to have the blade fully covered or guarded at all times. This to reduces the use of dado blades on table saws. Thus new euro sliders have no provisions for dado blades. But they are legal on radial arm saws. This is because the RAS can have a fully guarded blade coupled with a guided cut and should there be an emergency, you can quickly remove the offending blade in less than 10 seconds, thus there is no need for a DC brake.

    Then you have the fact that new cabinet makers in europe are working with more and more sheet goods. As a result, dimensioning saws are becomming less useful. This is what they call small, general purpose table saws. Rather, european format sliders are more useful as they can dispatch sheet goods with exteme precision. Or you can use one of my favorate saws, the Striebig panel saw. You can even install my beloved dado stack on one of these.

    A while back, FWW had some articles on the most important machines in the shop. The gist was which big purchase machine should you buy first? Ironically, the table saw was not on this list. Rather, the bandsaw was listed as the first saw to buy. Interesting. I think many of us have been fed a dumpster full of rubish regarding the total usefullness of the table saw. It is quite handy but aside from cutting dados, there is not much that a good bandsaw cannot do that the table saw can do. A good quality table saw equipped with a good forrest WWII blade can produce a glue line rip quality cut which a bandsaw cannot do.

    You see, in the old days, most table saw blades did in fact leave blade marks. These marks were then cleaned up on a jointer or through the use of hand tools such as planes, etc. As blade technology improved and as bearings got tighter, so did the quality of the cut. Today, you can eliminate the need for a jointer on many table saw cuts. The bandsaw on the other hand will never reach this level of perfection. There are many variables that combine to leave blade marks or uneven planer surfaces. But this is really a no brainer and not a problem. You adjust your kerf accordingly and then use the jointer or hand tools. No Biggie.

    But the tool vendors see it another way. They have invented all sorts of gizmos that hook onto the table saw. For example, the venerable tenon jig. Then of course you have all the toys to assist you in cross cuts. For example, look at the new mitre gages for sale by Jessem or Incra. They look like candy for adults.

    On the other hand, if you are a hobbyist and your pursueing woodworking for the pleasure of it, it may not be a bad idea to rethink the table saw argument all over again. By focusing on the use of hand tools where needed, you develop skills and subsequently, confidence in your abilities.

    So as you can see, there are two distinct schools of thought here. Right now, I use a martin table saw. The inproportionate percentage of what goes through this saw is baltic birch plywood. It takes up a huge amount of space. And its use on hardwoods is for doing rough dimensioning for the shaper. If I could eliminate my addiction to baltic birch, I could easily live without the table saw. It boils down to comfort versus need. The bandsaw easily meets the need but the table saw only improves the capability of the bandsaw on some counts. If I were doing this as a hobbyist, I could see myself using a festool rig for plywood dimensioning and a bandsaw for the other items.

    Lastly, when I run my tablesaw, I take a deep breath and clear my daily issues from my head. This is the one machine where even after years of use, I still need to concentrate with 110 percent. A bandsaw is much more casual if I dare use that term.

    Hope this helps a bit...
    Had the dog not stopped to go to the bathroom, he would have caught the rabbit.

  4. Do I even need a table saw?

    So this gets me thinking....

    I do this only as a hobby, and to hopefully make some nice additions to our house and gifts to family and friends. I worked my way, many years ago, in a cabinet shop and installing custom trim. I always felt the "need" for a table saw, so I went the cabinet saw route. I've added several shop jigs as well as a Jessem miter gauge. In the time I've had my lil' shop set up, I've only had a few times that the cabinet saw felt unsafe.... and mostly because of my ignorance.

    So putting this aside, I've finally decided to invest in the full EZ Smart system. I do a lot of work with sheet goods and this seems like one of the best ways to handle them. The thing I can't see the EZ system replacing is working with ripping and cutting hardwoods. I do have a bandsaw, but it a less expensive 14" harbor freight unit. It does a fine job, but I never thought of replacing my table saw with it.

    However, one thing always comes to mind. My cabinet saw with the 50" fence takes up the majority of my two car garage shop. It is also a little intimidating at times. Could I really get by without it?

    I need to look into this further, but I'm thinking that I could get by with the EZ system, a better band saw, and the jointer that I already have. I also have a sliding miter saw that could handle many of the cuts I do on the table saw.

    I'm not convinced that I could really get by without a table saw, but I am very much open to the possibility.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by John Hulett
    I posted earlier asking technical questions about the MM16. The salesman told us that in a European shop, the Bandsaw is the central piece in the shop; all others - inclduing the TS - are merely supplemental. He went so far as to say that the only thing he uses his TS for is for sheet goods.

    Are there resources where I can learn more about the "European style?"

    My experience with the BS is very limited; I probably have 10 minutes on any bandsaw, total.

    That being said, I know that the BS is much more versitile that merely cutting curves and resawing. Is there a good resource on tips, tricks and techniques on the BS? I saw a couple of books on Amazon (Lonnie Byrd's was a quick find), but my impression was that these books were geared more towards how to buy a BS than how to get the most/best use of it.

    Thanks,
    John
    John

    Pause for a moment and consider that this gentleman was selling you a bandsaw. Now unpause.

    What he has said is misleading. Every "European" (english) shop that I am aware of uses a table saw. In commercial shops that have been equipped or re-equipped in the last 10 years that is likely to be a table saw which was designed from the ground up to have a sliding table. In lots of shops it is a traditional style cast iron topped saw often with some kind of outrigger sliding support. Of the 10 or so pro woodworkers of whom I have knowledge the bandsaw is used for cuts only when that cut is not possible on the TS.

    Our regulation is different to yours but I personally do not consider it "extreme" nor has it done away with table saws that you would recognise as similar to the ones that you can purchase. My local home centre still sells very cheap and frighteningly low quality benchtop 10" table saws that it scares me to think how low the commitment to learning is.

    I use my table saw to joint all the timber that goes through my shop and to rip it all to width. I use the TS because for these two jobs I would need a mammoth bandsaw to get close to the stratight line capability of the TS. That mammoth bandsaw would be so big that I would not be abble to run the blades which I use for curved work and would therefore need another bandsaw. So either way I am using two machines and in essence the resaw bandsaw would cost a lot more than a TS to get the same capability.

    All that said, if I was starting again and knew then what I know now I would not buy a starter TS but would instead go with one of the rail systems and a good quality circular saw. My own choice would be Festool. I would then make my next big purchase a top quality bandsaw . That way I have the ability to make straight and curved cuts as required. So your salesman may be giving you good advise, he is just using bad information to support it.

  6. #6
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    I think a lot depends on what your projects are. I've never wanted a table saw. However, all my major woodworking projects have been projects with curves. I build mountain dulcimers, a kayak, a small boat and kayak paddles. I've always gotten along just fine. I don't have a bandsaw either, although I want one of those badly. I've always been able to use jigs, a radial arm saw and hand tools for the cuts one would use a table saw for. If I was to start making more furniture, it would be hard to not notice all the fine craftsman who have chosen the table saw as their go-to machine. But for me, I don't have a table saw in my forseeable future.

    John
    John Bailey
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  7. #7
    never having set foot in europe i`m not qualified to comment on their methods. but doing about equal parts of curved and straight work i`m comfortable saying i wouldn`t want to be without either a band or table saw. each saw has its pros and cons, but each one excells at certain jobs.....02 tod
    TO WHOM IT MAY CONCERN; I ACCEPT FULL LEGAL RESPONSIBILITY FOR MY POSTS ON THIS FORUM, ALL POSTS ARE MADE IN GOOD FAITH CONTAINING FACTUAL INFORMATION AS I KNOW IT.

  8. #8
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    TS and BS both have a place in any shop working with solid wood

    lou

  9. #9
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    Cecil, Dev, Ian - Thanks for the interesting insight you've so thoughtfully provided. This is exactly the kind of information that makes me love SMC!

    While I wasn't really looking in the direction of doing away with my TS - in fact one day I'd like to upgrade - I do think of the TS, along with most other machines as being one or two-trick-pony's.

    Jointer - Flaten the face, square the edge, finishing pass following a rip

    Planer - go to final thickness

    RAS - cross cuts, dado

    TS - Rips, Cross Cuts, dado (could also be accomplished via router), tennon (requires jig)

    BS - Resaw, curves, better capacity to cut thick lumber (had to pass on 12/4 because I couldn't cut it with TS), rips, cross cuts. I saw DJ Marks use it to cut dovetails by tilting the table, tennon, Norm cut a circular table top...

    I guess my point is, it seems that the BS can really be one of the more versitile tools in the shop, but with my EXTREMELY limited experience, I'm looking for some ideas on uses and techniques for the BS.

    - John

    NOTE: My intention is not to debate other tricks a jointer can do (tapered legs), etc. but rather would like more info on BS.

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