Movin' on up...(obnoxiously long post)

[Jason Morgan]

Just like Mr. Jefferson, except not to the east side, to the garage.

I currently have a basement shop that I like, but we need more living space and a finished basement is the best way to accomplish that. Unfortunately, not enough room for both (workshop and family room). So, LOML (who has realized all along that she has a vested interest in my WW hobby) has banished the minivan to the driveway (year round) and offered up 440 sq. ft. of semi-prime real estate (20x22 typical 60's supposed to be 2 car but really only fits 1 car+junk garage) for the sole purpose of a WW shop.

What I would like to ask all of you is for hints/tips and critique of what my plan is so far. Always better to have more than one brain in on matters of importance and you guys and gals seem to have some of the best shop brains I have come across.

Here is the situation and some preliminary plans Please comment on anything and everything.

Floor:
Currently: badly cracked and spalled cement slab that has some slight heaving/sinking of some of the larger cracked sections

Proposed Solution: PT 2x4 sleepers 16"oc laid flat (so as not to raise up the floor too high) and leveled to take out as much of the uneveness as I possibly can. this will be covered with 3/4" T&G subfloor material or 3/4 A/C ply. Will put foil backed foam panel insulation inbetween the sleepers. There will be a 3x3 "cut out" in the false floor for the rear exit door (so I dont have to lift it up)

Walls/ Ceiling:
Currently: 2x4 walls are insulated with plastic wrapped fiberglass insulation and covered with cheap crappy 3/16" (yes, 3/16") peg board. Ceiling is exposed 2x8 rafters 16OC with no covering. (dont know why the previous owner only insulated the walls)

Proposed Solution: Remove cheap crappy peg board and replace with OSB, T&G siding stuff, or A/C PW, probably 1/2". Add R-(as big as will fit in 2x8 rafters) insulation bats to ceiling and take the cheap crappy peg board and put it over it. Will need to add some more, but not much. I figure that all this is doing is keeping the insulation from crashing down on my head. Is this correct thinking or will I be letting precious BTUs escape through all those little holes. I am also considering covering the ceiling+insulation with hard white foam panels (you know the stuff, like 4'x8' sheets of hard foam packing material). I want something that is easy for 1 man to install (dry wall is out I think.)

Garage Door:
Currently: Have a thick solid core 16' door that is fairly well insulated. Ill add some more weather stripping around it each winter and keep it available to be open in the summer.

Proposed Solution: Stick with what I got.

Electrical:
Currently: Only a few lights and the opener on a single circuit.

Proposed Solution: Run all of the lighting off the current 20A circuit that comes from the main box. Will also add an 80A sub panel (wont even be 3 feet from the main box) with 4x 20A 220V and 4x 20A 110V. 220s will be 1 each for DC/compressor, TS, Jointer, and someday a 16" MM BS. 110s will be 2 rows of outlets (one run with tops and bottoms on separate circuits), 1 to power the Air Cleaner and one to power the heat/cooling. Suggestions here would be really appreciated.

Heat/Cooling:
Currently: have a window a/c that is just sitting there waiting to be used, and no heat.

Proposed Solution: Install window A/C in a framed cutout in one of the walls. Install a vented gas heater on one of the other walls.

Dust Collection:
Currently: Have a nice Jet 1100 CK.

Proposed Solution: I have to build a shed attached to the back of the garage to house all of the garage stuff, so I will build a 4'x6' extension to that to house the DC and compressor. Main duct will come down the middle of the shop and branch from there.

The rest will be filling up the space with tools and cabinets for storage, but by that time the hard part is already done. Thanks for taking the time to read my post and give suggestions. Ill try to keep everyone posted as to my progress.

[Charlie Plesums]

Two suggestions...

The MM 16 that you are dreaming about takes a 30 Amp 240 volt, not 20 Amp. Suggest that at least 2 if not all 4 of your 240 volt runs be 30 amps.

If you are going to suck out 1000+ cfm of air with your DC in the shed, where is the replacement air coming from? Better not be down the chimney from the water heater in the corner - too much carbon monoxide and other friendly stuff. The common solution is to take the nice warm air that just went through the filters, and bring it back into the shop.

For what it is worth, I have a combination machine with 8 1/2 foot sliding table, 16 inch jointer planer, lathe, drill press, drum sander, radial arm saw, compressor, and dust collector, a few hundred board feet of wood, and lots of hand tools, all in a 2 car garage that occasionally is reconfigured to hold one car. You can do it!

[Matt Warfield]

Jason,

I would recommend putting your DC and air compressor on different circuits. The rest of the equipment can go on the same circuit unless you foresee using multiple machines at any one time.

And for the MM16, it has a 4.8HP motor which will exceed the capacity of the 20 amp circuit. If this is still a dream, I'd save that circuit for later and just layout the 20 amp circuit as the more economical solution.

Having pegboard for your ceiling certainly won't help your R factor.

Best of luck with your new project!!

Matt

[Andy Fox]

Hey, I just moved my shop in the other direction! I went from a 19' x 20' x 9' unheated attached garage to a 15' x 26' (12' x 23' usable space) basement with 7' ceilings. I like the basement better, and I actually came up with a better layout (thanks to input from many here!) which is more efficient and spacious than in the roomier garage. There was just too much non-woodworking junk out in the garage for me to be happy with my layout there.

Are you sure you want to give up indoor parking space for a separate family room? Here in Ohio, it's a pain to scrape frost, ice, and snow off of two cars almost every day for 3-4 months. We just let the living room get trashed (by 2 year old) and clean it when someone's visiting.

Exposed foam panel insulation is a fire hazard due to easy combustion and toxic combustion fumes. If you're concerned with keeping things up to code, 5/8" fire-resistant type X drywall is probably required in your area for all attached garage walls/ceilings which adjoin living space. I'd insulate (edit: with fiberglass batts) and drywall the ceiling if you're sure you've got all your lighting and ceiling outlets you need. Renting a drywall jack could turn this into a one person job.

Here's my pro/con analysis of having a garage shop:

Pros
1. Easy access for wood, tools, projects
2. Dust is outside main house
3. Noise is outside main house
4. Most finishing almost always needs to be done in a ventilated garage or outside anyway due to toxic fumes, cancer, and birth defect risks.
5. Generally higher ceilings
6. Basement can be dedicated to other uses such as living space, storage.
7. Garage may be less accessible to children than basement.

Cons
1. Extra money and effort to heat and cool. It's often a pre-project project to control the garage temperature.
2. Easier access and visibility for tool-lusting thieves.
3. Humidity and condensation lead to rust problems due to inconsistent and poor heating, cooling, and ventilation in cold or humid climates.
4. Vehicles are exposed to weather (morning ice scraping routine), vandals, and theives.
5. Snow and rain blow into open garage, and only a little can cause a lot of annoying rust spots on cast iron.
6. Noise disturbs neighbors easier.
7. For those who don't/can't have a shed, there's a lot of other junk that takes up garage space.
8. Garage is more wildlife-friendly. I've had bugs, mosquitos , Godzilla-sized grasshoppers, frogs, toads, snakes, praying mantis, cats, dogs, and even a garage door salesman crawl under my garage door when it's open about a foot for ventilation. Some of these were not discovered until they had been mummified in dust--no, not the salesman! Watch episodes of "Crocodile Hunter" if you need tips on how to deal with all these critters.

Good luck and enjoy your new shop!

[Bart Leetch]

Instead of leaving a cut out in the floor for the door rehang it to swing out this also makes it harder to break into the shop.

[Rob Will]

I would either add an additional layer of flooring or take the sleeper spacing down to 12". Also, why is the concrete floor moving? Will this continue? You might want to do some serious crack filling to slow moisture coming up from below. Will water EVER find it's way from outside to under the new floor system?

The electrical sub panel sounds like a good plan. Make sure you get copper buss bars.

[Norman Hitt]

Jason,



And for the MM16, it has a 4.8HP motor which will exceed the capacity of the 20 amp circuit. If this is still a dream, I'd save that circuit for later and just layout the 20 amp circuit as the more economical solution.
Matt

The cost differential of running a 30A vs 20A 220v ckt is minimal, as the labor time is the same and the only difference in cost is 10 ga wire instead of 12 ga wire, 30A 220v receptacles vs 20A 220v, and 30 A breakers. I personally would install the 10 ga wire and 30A receptacles on all the 220v ckts and then use 20A brkrs if that is all the machine on that ckt needs, and if a larger machine was added in that space later, he would only need to change the breaker.

To meet code in a "garage"/shop, he will also need to protect all the 110v plugs with GFCI's, and most likely as someone already mentioned, the walls & ceiling will probably have to be covered with drywall, (5/8" for the walls, and I think 1/2" will work on the ceiling, but he will have to check that).

[Matt Meiser]

Your new shop sounds a lot like my old shop, floor and all. On the ceiling, I wouldn't skimp on material to cover it. I would do something with it. On Norm's "Garage Workshop" series, he used Homasote board on the ceiling. The peg board is just going to sag and look bad. Plus you'll probably get dust falling out of the ceiling. If the garage is attached, you are probably required to do drywall.

On the floor, you might look into one of the concrete repair products that you pour over bad concrete to level it. That will allow getting a car in if you need to. I configured my old shop to allow getting one car in the garage for maintenance and such. If you go with the wood floor, make it float so that it can be removed later without much trouble.

For electrical, don't buy too small of a subpanel. Remeber that 220 circuits take up twice the breaker space of a 110 circuit. Those 220 circuits will eat up space faster than you can imagine.

[Jim Becker]

Drywall on that ceiling, not pegboard...otherwise, you have a lot of good suggestions already. I also like the idea of a wood floor...it would be my preference for a dedicated space.

[Anthony Anderson]

If you have natural gas, I would definately plumb in a hanging garage furnace. If you don't do it now at least everything is there for future addition. Sheetrock the ceiling and then blow in insulation to R-30 or so depending on where you live.

Second, I would also make all of the tools mobile. You want, at least, your wife to be able to park in the garage the majority of the time. Exceptions would be when a large project is underway. She will love you for it, and be more agreeable when a new tool purchase is needed. Plus it shows respect for her as well.

I know a person who has his shop in half of a two car garage. Everything is mobile, and his wife can still park in the garage. He is extremely organized. He buys tools that he really needs, not justs wants. But in this one car, he produces furniture that would rival anything that a professional could produce. The first piece of his I saw was a Queen Anne Foyer/Hallway table. Handcut dovetails, handshaped legs from square stock, everything was perfect. Truly Amazing. He is truly an artist/woodworker, not a tool collector. Keep in mind that you don't have to have a shop packed to the gills with all of the latest gadgets to do top notch work. Be organized, make sure all the small stuff has its place, and all the big stuff is on wheels. And you wife has a place to park. HTH, Good Luck, Bill

[Ed Frie]

I have a detached garage all to myself for a shop. I did the same thing by laying sleepers on the side and insulated with foam between them with 3/4 T&G on top. It has worked great for three years now. However, the smartest thing I did was to put down thick plastic sheeting first, then the sleepers and insulation. The shop is dry as dust year round instead of that "damp garage floor" feeling happening in spring causing your tools to rust.

[Barry O'Mahony]

I personally would install the 10 ga wire and 30A receptacles on all the 220v ckts and then use 20A brkrs if that is all the machine on that ckt needs,...

FYI, this is only permissable when the 30A single (non-duplex) receptacle is the only one on the circuit. For 20A circuits with two or more receptacles, they must be either 15A or 20A units. The 10 AWG conductors are fine in any case.

[Jeff Sudmeier]

Floor:
Currently: badly cracked and spalled cement slab that has some slight heaving/sinking of some of the larger cracked sections

Proposed Solution: PT 2x4 sleepers 16"oc laid flat (so as not to raise up the floor too high) and leveled to take out as much of the uneveness as I possibly can. this will be covered with 3/4" T&G subfloor material or 3/4 A/C ply. Will put foil backed foam panel insulation inbetween the sleepers. There will be a 3x3 "cut out" in the false floor for the rear exit door (so I dont have to lift it up)

I would be concerned about your 2x4 sleepers being on their sides. If the floor has heaved/sunk I would be concerned about the 2x4's being able to support any additional sinking w/o the floor being out of level. 4x4's would probably take the load much better or even just 2x4's on edge.

[Jason Morgan]

Thanks to all for all of the good suggestions:

Basement vs Garage: I love my basement shop, but we really need the space. The main floor is just over 600sq feet and with 3 kids and a dog, it sure would be nice to have another place to go. Also, we have lots of family visitors and it would be nice for them to have a place to sleep/spread out.

Floor: Plastic under the sleepers, great idea that I hadnt thought of. The floor never gets any standing water, but is damp part of the year. The heaving/spalling if from many years past. The whole time weve lived in this house I havent noticed any movement of the garage floor. I thought about the surface coating, and for the cost of the wood floor, it would be close, but I like the idea of wood. I also am toying with the idea of wood on half so that I can still get the car in there when I need to)

Electrical: Many good suggestions. Ill keep my box large and "overbuilt". I have a good friend who is an electrician, he's agreed to help me out, so Im counting on him to keep me up to code.

Ceiling: This is what I am most concerned with. Ill have to check what is code for this area. I would really like the homasote idea as I think those panels are managable by one person. Homasote is the feltboard like stuff right? I could do the DW with a jack, but that is still going to be tough (no pain no gain right?).

thanks again. I will be starting this spring and will photo-log my pragress here.

[Joe Chritz]

Don't be intimidated by sheetrock for the ceiling. If you want to get out easy just take some 1x's and put them over the seams. This also helps with sagging if you have spacing wider than 24" O.C.

Rent a drywall lift for a day and they go up pretty easy with one person. You would have to stay to 12 foot sheets or shorter to manhandle them onto the lift. Its possible with 16's but a lot more work.

I am also in the process of finishing up a shop and have a few things I would do differently if I did it again.

I gotta run to work for a few hours but tonight when I come in I'll post some more on what I did. Who knows maybe I'll even snaps some pictures.

Joe