Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 19

Thread: Safety on the Lathe (long with pictures)

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Kutztown PA
    Posts
    1,255

    Safety on the Lathe (long with pictures)

    Greetings all

    In another thread on this forum, there has developed a spirited discussion on safety. It has gotten somewhat acrimonious, and I am partly to blame for that. I apologize for my part. I do want to say some things here that need to be said though, regarding safety on the lathe. I speak from a background of experience in teaching in all sorts of venues. I have taught elementary age school children to grandparents, retarded men from a group home to rocket scientists (literally!). I have had students from 4 foot nothing to 6' 8", and evey body size and type imaginable, including one man who had to stand on two crutches to be at the lathe! There is not a lot that I have not seen or heard about when it comes to newbies and turning.

    Many of you who know me even a little bit know that I am not much for subjectivism - i.e. I am a black and white, right and wrong sort of guy. In many cases, it either is, or it isn't. But when it comes to the lathe, all of a sudden a lot of grey appears, and that is the subject of this post. For reference, this subject has been discussed on other fora, but we aren't there, we are here.

    The question is, what is safe on the lathe. The answer is, it depends. I have seen people use everything from dental tools to chainsaws to shape the wood on the lathe. I would certainly draw the line at a chainsaw, but there is a whole lot inbetween that needs looked at. I am going to make some general observations, and I hope others will contribute to this.

    We all start at the same place on the lathe - the beginning. I started on a crappy piece of Chinese junk that broke and scared me half to death. It cut five years off my turning career because it was that long before I picked up a lathe tool again. I have a student right now who started out as a rank beginner with a Oneway 2436 and every single attachment Oneway makes. The same catches on that Oneway are going to have different results than they would on my old Chinese lathe.

    I don't want this to become overly long or pedantic so I will (try to) get to the point. When we buy a lathe, or any tool for that matter, there are certain things that are set in stone. For example, we cannot avoid the laws of physics. But, there are a lot of things that are not set in stone. The size of our lathe and the quality of our tools are all variables in the equation. A small poorly built lathe with minimal power is not going to have the same "danger quotient" that a large powerful machine will have. A person with some experience will have less risk at some operations than a person with no experience.

    We all need to decide for ourselves, what is safe for me to do or try, and what might not be such a good idea. This is the realm of personal responsibility. I happen to think that we also have a responsibility to others, but not everyone else thinks that way. But how much responsibility do we have, and how should we exercise it? There are things I do on my lathe that other people tell me they would never attempt. I did not do them years ago, but as I gained in experience, I made the attempt. There were lots of times when I came down from the shop with banged and bleeding knuckles from a moment's inattention, but it was a concious decision on my part to make the attempt. There is a lot of information out on the web today, stuff that did not even exist when I started turning back in 1993. We can read and study, and then we need to think and make a decision.

    In the above referenced discussion, there is a difference of opinion as to the safety and efficacy of using a bench chisel on the lathe. I spoke out very strongly that I did not see a problem, or at least no more problem that the same person using a skew or straight chisel with the same level of experience. This morning I decided to put my money where my mouth is, and went to the shop for a brief experiment. The results are below.

    <img src="http://www.enter.net/~ultradad/benchskew01.jpg">

    Here on the ways of my lathe, you can see my large skew, and next to it my beater Sears chisel. This is the chisel I use for wood where there may be nails, rocks, or other things that are bad for chisel blades. It is small, cheap, and short. In fact, it is just about the very same length (a fraction of an inch longer) than the metal on my skew chisel. It is also somewhat thinner.

    I dug out a chunk of reject wood from my tap handle job. This was a 2 5/8" square by 9" long piece of tulip poplar with a large bark inclusion in it. I put it on the Poolewood and fired it up to a relatively slow 1000 rpm. I usually start these handles at 2900 rpm. I stuck my unsharpened rusty beater chisel into the wood, and it cut! It cut just like my skew for the most part, as long as I limited myself to simple cuts.

    <img src="http://www.enter.net/~ultradad/benchskew02.jpg">

    This is a blurry picture of the tool in the cutting position. I had to do all this by myself and the camera moved or something. There should be enough info here to get the point across. The bevel is down, and I roughed the square to round as I have taught many people to do in the past.

    <img src="http://www.enter.net/~ultradad/benchskew03.jpg">

    Here is a better pic of the results. I was able to get a reasonably smooth surface on a large piece of wood at a slow rpm with a run of the mill bench chisel. It gave me a lot of grief on the pommel cut, as you can see from the blown out corners and ragged shoulder. I think it stands to reason that if I can get similar cuts with a tool at my level of experience, then a newbie without experience is going to have the same experience - similar cuts regardless of the tool used, and in the case of a noob, lousy cuts.

    When I first started turning, I used my skew chisel for cutting large ragged holes in the wood, removing pieces of work from the lathe while it was still running, and giving me an excuse to go change my shorts. I got better at it though, and I suspect that regardless of the tool, I would have improved. I still have and use that very same skew. These things are going to happen to us all if we are going to push the envelope of our skills and experiences. If I had not pushed it, I would not be turning stuff like this:

    <img src="http://www.enter.net/~ultradad/cherrypropeller01.jpg">


    <img src="http://www.enter.net/~ultradad/cherrypropeller02.jpg">

    I would not recommend that a beginner start out like this, but then that is his (or her!) decision to make. Happy turning to all, and I hope to see some other thoughts on this topic.

    Bill

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Pacific, Mo.
    Posts
    2,835
    A nice suppliment to the other thread. Informative and to the point.
    Making new friends on SMC each and every day

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Conway, Arkansas
    Posts
    13,181
    Good Morning Bill,

    I have to agree with ya. After getting the basics down and building my confidence level on the lathe is when I started getting "bit". Big catches, faster spinning wood, flying parts because I was exercising unwise decisions and such as that. I've used a bench chisel on the lathe, I've used a skew while bowl turning, built a jig and used a powered router with bit on the lathe (folks, don't try that one at home!!!) and other things that I would warn others to NOT do. Some things work out for an overal benefit, while others are a Never Do This Again.....kinda thing.

    Thanks for your post Bill.
    Thanks & Happy Wood Chips,
    Dennis -
    Get the Benefits of Being an SMC Contributor..!
    ....DEBT is nothing more than yesterday's spending taken from tomorrow's income.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jun 2004
    Location
    Houston, Texas
    Posts
    1,578
    Thanks Bill, and you are not the first I have seen or heard say that you could use a chisel to turn.
    Good, Fast, Cheap--Pick two.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Putnam County, NY
    Posts
    3,086
    Bill,
    If I have learned anything about turning it is this: There are many ways to skin a cat. It is helpful to hear it reiterated at times. It amazes me when I hear "you can't do that!" and I have seen someone do just that thing with excellent results.
    John
    I could cry for the time I've wasted, but thats a waste of time and tears.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Benton Falls, Maine
    Posts
    5,480
    Bravo, Bill Grumbine. I appreciate the time and thoughfulness that went into your post. That said, I also appreciate the posts - all of them - that prompted this thread, because I learned from them.

    Here's my two cent's worth, but first my caveat - I have some experience, little talent, no formal training, and a short supply of emergency replacement u-trow. As such, when I experiment I hope that it is done with careful forethought, a plan, and an escape route.

    Taking that same Sears bench chisel one could also remove an impacted wisdom tooth, or adjust the carburetor on an old 9N Ford tractor. But who would want to? And who would advise another to do so?

    I believe that any instructor, any schlepper of goods, or anyone offering their opinion to the public has a moral responsibilty to that public to promote and suggest remedies to problems or challenges with items and ideas that are founded in common sense, safety, and using them within the confines of their design and engineering intent.

    I'm reminded of a line from the Jurassic Park movie. Jeff Goldbum's character says something like this to Richard Attenborough's character, "You knew that you could, but never stopped to consider whether you should."

    Okay - down off stump, the glue should be dry by now.
    Only the Blue Roads

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Kutztown PA
    Posts
    1,255
    Quote Originally Posted by Andy Hoyt

    Taking that same Sears bench chisel one could also remove an impacted wisdom tooth, or adjust the carburetor on an old 9N Ford tractor. But who would want to? And who would advise another to do so?

    I believe that any instructor, any schlepper of goods, or anyone offering their opinion to the public has a moral responsibilty to that public to promote and suggest remedies to problems or challenges with items and ideas that are founded in common sense, safety, and using them within the confines of their design and engineering intent.
    Andy, I do not mean to be contentious, but this is a straw man argument. If I had sharpened my shovel, or some other unlikely tool, then your comparison would have some merit. But, this post was to discuss the efficacy as well as the safety in using such a tool.

    I agree with you regarding common sense, safety, etc. For example, using a roughing gouge on a bowl is a very bad idea, as evidenced by how many people snap them off. The geometry is just not there. But this is a different thing, and if it were not safe, I would say so. In the other thread, I stated that this was not really the best way to do it, but the contrast was made that this was extremely dangerous, and it just ain't so. I think we have a responsibility in that direction too. While the geometry of a turning chisel and a bench chisel are different, they aren't that different, and they are doing the same work. One can replace the other. Best tool? Not at all. Okay tool? Certainly. That is my point.

    Bill

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Goodland, Kansas
    Posts
    22,605
    Bill thanks for the informative post. I agree that you can use different tools to do a job. I also know there are tools made for specfic jobs. I think any tool in a persons shop should be used with safety first, common sense and some thought about what one is doing. It is not the machine that jumps up and gives you that big catch or sends a piece of wood flying either off the table saw or lathe. Most times it is the person using the machine that does something that is unwise or shouldn't be done on a machine.

    I am a firm believer that tools are made to do certain jobs and as such these tools should be used for that purpose. Learn your limits and the machines limits when using a machine. I think Andy said it best. When I experiment with something, first and foremost is safety, a lot of thought, a plan of action and how to get away from it if it goes bad.

    Thanks again Bill.
    Bernie

    Never put off until tomorrow what you can do the day after tomorrow.

    To succeed in life, you need three things: a wishbone, a backbone and a funnybone.



  9. #9
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Pairieville, LA
    Posts
    532
    You also need to remember the context of this arguement started over a guy turning on a lathe powered by batteries while using a chisel on a pencil sized dowel. Bill showed it can be done safely on a more powerful lathe with a bigger hunk of wood..physics is the same.

    Also isnt it a bit hypocritical to say something about turning using a chisel when some of you turn mini's or small hollow forms using sharpened mini-screwdrivers. A tool that wasnt supposed to be use to cut wood anyway.

    Like I am fond of saying( thanks dad)..."Same difference".
    What if the light at the end of the tunnel is a train?

  10. #10
    Great article Bill. I started with a Shopsmith in 1980. One of the first bowls I turned was a 14"x 4" pc. of red oak which I had laminated to get the thickness. I turned on this bowl in 1981 and used a scraper to start. I took the scraper face on to that bowl. The Shopsmith was jumping, got a catch and snaped the scraper right in to. To this day when ever I see a beginner get that scraper out and do the same thing it scares the bejesus out me, because I remember my experience. If you start at the corner with a gouge and work towards the headstock you are going to be a lot safer. I also see some of the China imports with cast iron tool rests and banjos which have broke. Fortunately I started upgrading and by 1987 I got it right with a General 260. I would have saved some big bucks in the interval if I had started with that machine instead of the Cornet, Klein, Tyme and Delta. I still have the Shopsmith, and Tyme. Also have that first large Red Oak bowl. I have used a roofing axe to turn like a skew. Del Stubbs showed me that trick. GT

  11. #11
    Bill,

    You're a better man than me. The first time I tried turning I really did launch a piece of wood through the ceiling using a wood chisel. It's been twenty plus years but I think I basically jabbed the chisel straight into the side of the spinning piece. I didn't know anything about bevels or riding them.

    One of the few things I have learned over the years is that the right tool makes a job easier and often gives better results. While the chisel or an ax head might work, I think I'll stick with my few Sorby beginner tools.

    The one thing I did find amazing was the idea that the gentleman was trying to sell lathes but not lathe tools!

    I look forward to seeing the "Stanley Tools presents Bill Turning with Chisels" video



    Dave Fried

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Aug 2005
    Location
    Benton Falls, Maine
    Posts
    5,480
    Hey, Bill. I don't mean to be contentious either. Had to look efficacy up in the dictionary, and still don't know what straw man arguement means. Doesn't matter though, I think.

    I just got back from a trip to the town dump, and man is it cold out. Maybe 10° above but the wind is moving wicked fast. So.... on the way back I pulled in for a cup of coffee. After getting back in the Exploder I happened to note the warning on the cup. "Caution - contents may be hot!" Well duh! I should certainly hope so.

    So why is that warning there? To cover the collective sixes of everyone and every entity of the supply chain involved in delivering that cup of Joe to me - just in case I'm a complete idiot or a libelous maroon. (We can debate whether I am over cold beer some day).

    So why bring this up? Because all of us who share our knowledge and experience openly in any number of venues (forums, teaching classes, demos, chapter meetings, and such) are - by the very fact of participating in these things - imparting "something" to someone. And if that someone should not fully understand the context in what was imparted, then it's quite possible that a "turning event" could occur for which we could be held culpable.

    Some events result in the need for a fresh pair of shorts, some produce blood, and some devolve to attorneys. Happily, we never hear about most of them.

    As teachers and docents - to whatever degree we may be - I think we owe it to ourselves and each other to consider that the improbable is sadly possible.

    Sheesh! Way too deep for this hayseed. I'm going inside, grab a scoop of Brazilian Coffee Chip and chill out.
    Only the Blue Roads

  13. #13
    Hmmm .... Brazilian Coffee Chip ... sounds good.

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Anaheim, California
    Posts
    6,903
    Quote Originally Posted by Bernie Weishapl
    I am a firm believer that tools are made to do certain jobs and as such these tools should be used for that purpose.
    I'm a firm believer in "the right tool for the job", unless it turns into "I can't do that job because I don't have the right tool".

    The supply of unskinned cats always exceeds the tool budget.
    Yoga class makes me feel like a total stud, mostly because I'm about as flexible as a 2x4.
    "Design"? Possibly. "Intelligent"? Sure doesn't look like it from this angle.
    We used to be hunter gatherers. Now we're shopper borrowers.
    The three most important words in the English language: "Front Towards Enemy".
    The world makes a lot more sense when you remember that Butthead was the smart one.
    You can never be too rich, too thin, or have too much ammo.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Conway, Arkansas
    Posts
    13,181
    Quote Originally Posted by Andy Hoyt
    Sheesh! Way too deep for this hayseed. I'm going inside, grab a scoop of Brazilian Coffee Chip and chill out.
    Hey Andy..!!! Save me some will ya?
    Thanks & Happy Wood Chips,
    Dennis -
    Get the Benefits of Being an SMC Contributor..!
    ....DEBT is nothing more than yesterday's spending taken from tomorrow's income.

Similar Threads

  1. What brand is the best mini lathe?
    By Mike Glaze in forum Turner's Forum
    Replies: 30
    Last Post: 01-20-2012, 11:17 PM
  2. Retro Lathe Tools
    By Bob Smalser in forum Turner's Forum
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: 04-17-2007, 2:24 PM
  3. Santa's New Lathe
    By Sam Blasco in forum Turner's Forum
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: 08-20-2005, 8:46 PM
  4. Jigs and fixtures and safety
    By Mark Singer in forum General Woodworking and Power Tools
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: 07-13-2005, 12:53 PM
  5. My New "Mini" Lathe
    By Bill Grumbine in forum Turner's Forum
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 11-22-2004, 11:02 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •