Japanese chisels

[Mike Henderson]

Anyone have experience with the Grizzly Japanese chisels? Are they decent chisels for the money? Or do you have a recommendation for any other brand of reasonably priced Japanses chisels? Or if you tried Japanese chisels and didn't like them and want to sell your set, send me a PM.

I have a hard time understanding why some Japanese chisels are so expensive - almost $100 per chisel. From what I've read, every Japanese chisel manufacturer purchases the steel from commercial suppliers and uses wrought iron or very low carbon steel as a backing. I realize that some of these expensive chisels are hand made and that may be the reason why they're so expensive. But are there any technical reasons why those hand made chisels should be "better" (meaning that they take a better edge or hold the edge longer) than machine made Japanese chisels which use the same steel?

Mike

[Charlie Mastro]

It's just like anything else. The more it is hand made the more it costs. There are mass produced tools and there are hand made tools like Steve Knight's planes. Which do you think has more care and spirit put into them?

The better chisels have more time put into making them by their makers and they use different types of steel that only certain blacksmiths can temper successfully. The chisels are sometimes hand scraped and not ground to final shape. Some chisels become works of art because of the grain of the steel in the shanks that show off the folded patterns of the steel. Does this make it a better tool? Perhaps not but it sure becomes a thing of beauty to behold. Look at a hand made infill plane and the work that goes into that compared to a Stanley Bedrock.

I think if you look at how Japanese chisels are made with the tang and socket connection and the way the hoop is seated so you can hit the chisel with a steel hammer all day long and not hurt it. When you begin to realize how much work goes into these chisels then you can appreciate why they in my opinion out perform most other chisels hands down. As my wife likes to say “They got good Ju Ju”

[Jim Young]

Just as a note, take a look at Tasai chisels, they are in the $2-300 range a piece.

I would like to know the difference too. I want to buy one "good" chisel and compare it with the typical japanese chisels that I have. I just can't part with that much $$ for one chisel, yet. The next question would be will my skills be able to differentiate the difference in the two qualities?

[Mike Henderson]

I don't understand why hand forging makes a better chisel than machine forging. From what I have read, many of the hand made Japanese chisels are made on equipment that we would classify as "blacksmith" equipment, without much in the line of instrumentation for control of process variables.

I also do not understand why certain steel can be better tempered by hand than by machine. The smith must use very subjective indicators, such as the color of the steel, to determine the temperature, while factory made steel can use very accurate temperature measurements. I would expect that there would be significant batch-to-batch variability in the output of hand made chisels, even when made by the same smith.

It seems to me that a human controlled process would be best for producing different outputs since the human can adapt easily, and for adding artistic effects, which are a human judgment, especially on a per tool basis. For example, if a tool was being made especially for a customer and was being customized to that customer, the human might do a better job, especially if artistic effects were to be included in the customization.

But to produce the exact same product day after day, with consistent quality, a machine would be much superior.

I can certainly understand appreciating the "care and spirit" that goes into making a tool and for those who value that, hand made tools are available. But for those of us who just want a good tool at a reasonable price, perhaps a machine made tool is better.

What I was asking was "Are there any technical (not artistic) reasons that a hand made Japanese chisel is superior to a machine made Japanese chisel?" If there are not, I would choose machine made Japanese chisels.

Mike

[Pam Niedermayer]

There are all kinds of reasons, to name just a few: often the forging is done in a pine charcoal forge, it's difficult to match up the layers of metal, the cutting steel must be hard and durable, when people are doing the pounding they can stop/adjust more easily because they're generally working slower than machines, the materials are more expensive (especially the old wrought iron) and scarcer, the handles and blades seem better fitted to each other, etc.

And then I'd have to ask you why you use hand tools instead of power tools.

And then I have to say that you should hold, simply hold something special like a Tasai ultra thin paring chisel, then use it. You will know the difference.

As to Grizzly, I'd suggest not. Most of the cheaper Japanese chisels, like western chisels, bend and/or break.

Pam

[Charlie Mastro]

Let me direct you to another forum that has a lot more information on this subject and by a lot more knowledgeable people than my self. If you take the time to read through some of the old posts there is a wealth of knowledge to be had.
http://www.ibiblio.org/japanwood/php...f32e6688728438

Hope the link works but they are disscussing different tool makers and problems they have had with tools and you may find it interesting.

Short answer to your question is get what ever Japanese chisels you feel comfortable buying and give them a try. I don't think you will be disapointed. If you find you like them then buy a more expensive chisel by another maker and see how you like it or if you can tell any difference. You'll still have a good tool no matter which one you buy.

[Mike Henderson]

Pam, can you suggest a brand of Japanses chisels that are reasonably priced and will provide good service?

Charlie, Thank you for your pointer. I will check it out. I hope you are correct that I will not be disappointed in whatever Japanese chisels I choose. I can see reasons why they might be superior for my needs/desires.

Pam, Regarding the comments you made about the hand forging, I do not understand why any of the things you said would make a superior chisel. I feel confident that a piece of steel can be forge welded to a piece of iron very well by machine, certainly to the point that no usability differences can be detected. The steel in Japanese chisels is modern commercial steel, while the backing may be wrought iron or a very low carbon steel alloy. I do not see any reason why old wrought iron would be superior in this application to a modern very low carbon steel alloy, especially since it is not the cutting edge, but only the backer.

I do use some power tools but often do work that requires hand tools because of the shape or because it's easier to do with hand tools than power tools. Additionally, I enjoy doing hand work. I assume your comment about holding a certain tool in my hand is related to the artistic aspect of that tool. While I appreciate a beautiful hand made tool, right now I'm just looking for a well functioning set of tools at a reasonable price. $100+/- per tool is just out of my price range.

I've tried a number of brands of western chisels and find that there's not a lot of difference in edge holding quality. In my opinion, the edge on western chisels deform too quickly (and yes, I've tried many different sharpening angles). I look at carbide cutting tools with envy and wonder why we can't make chisels that hold an edge as well as those tools. That's why I want to try Japanese chisels - to see if the harder steel equates to better edge holding.

Mike

[Maurice Metzger]

And then I'd have to ask you why you use hand tools instead of power tools.
Pam

Beg pardon? I don't know about others, but I use hand tools instead of power tools because I don't want to deal with machinery and because I follow the ancient Japanese maxim 10 本の指をよい持っていることは (having 10 fingers is good) (OK, I made that up).

To me, folks with routers, bandsaws, etc. are like airline pilots flying a 747 with both hands full. I'm just having a good time flying my Piper Cub around.

If I can get it done with an inexpensive tool, so much the better - but I'm cheap.

It is strange that the low-end Japanese chisels are panned by everyone, when low-end mass produced Japanese saws work extremely well, at least for me.

- Maurice

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[tod evans]

p michael, kinda off topic here, sorry, but have you tried making your own with some of the newer alloys on the market, m-2, t-1 and who knows what else is out there? you may be able to have the best of both worlds..i have some knifes made out of m-2 that hold an edge well and t-1 is supposed to be even tougher.....02 tod

[Mike Henderson]

Tod, No, up to this point I haven't thought of making my own. I do welding but have never really tried any smithing. Also, I am *very* space limited - my shop is 10' by 11'. I wouldn't mind learning more about how to make tools but right now it's probably not an option.

Thanks for the idea - I wish I could.

Mike

[Michael Fross]

Tod, No, up to this point I haven't thought of making my own. I do welding but have never really tried any smithing. Also, I am *very* space limited - my shop is 10' by 11'. I wouldn't mind learning more about how to make tools but right now it's probably not an option.

Thanks for the idea - I wish I could.

Mike

Mike,

At risk of taking this a bit off topic, this is a book I was looking at but have not yet purchased. When I get time, I'm going to pick it up. Not sure if I'll actually do it, but I'm sure interested.

Book Link

Regards,

Michael

[tim langford]

P. Michael,

Why don't you try just one of these and see what you think. Not too much $ and they are really well made and nice to hold.

http://www.craftsmanstudio.com/html_p/J!14.300.htm

I have a number of these (can't remember if they are blue or white steel) but they do take a very sharp edge. I wouldn't pry with them though because I think they tend to be more brittle than western ones.

Mine came from Japanwoodworker I think.

[Mike Henderson]

Tim, Thanks for the pointer. Those look like reasonably priced Japanese chisels. I'll buy a couple in sizes I use a lot and give them a try.

And knowing that you have tried them and are reasonably satisfied helps. Thanks for the recommendation.

Mike

[Pam Niedermayer]

Pam, can you suggest a brand of Japanses chisels that are reasonably priced and will provide good service?

...Regarding the comments you made about the hand forging, I do not understand why any of the things you said would make a superior chisel. I feel confident that a piece of steel can be forge welded to a piece of iron very well by machine, certainly to the point that no usability differences can be detected. The steel in Japanese chisels is modern commercial steel, while the backing may be wrought iron or a very low carbon steel alloy. I do not see any reason why old wrought iron would be superior in this application to a modern very low carbon steel alloy, especially since it is not the cutting edge, but only the backer.

I do use some power tools but often do work that requires hand tools because of the shape or because it's easier to do with hand tools than power tools. Additionally, I enjoy doing hand work. I assume your comment about holding a certain tool in my hand is related to the artistic aspect of that tool. While I appreciate a beautiful hand made tool, right now I'm just looking for a well functioning set of tools at a reasonable price. $100+/- per tool is just out of my price range.

I've tried a number of brands of western chisels and find that there's not a lot of difference in edge holding quality. In my opinion, the edge on western chisels deform too quickly (and yes, I've tried many different sharpening angles). I look at carbide cutting tools with envy and wonder why we can't make chisels that hold an edge as well as those tools. That's why I want to try Japanese chisels - to see if the harder steel equates to better edge holding.

Well, after 4 years of buying and using Japanese tools, my definition of reasonable has drifted upward significantly. Dave Burnard says his Matsumara's from Japan Woodworker have worked fine for some years. I buy only the sizes I need, no sets, so that saves significant monies.

Old wrought iron is significant because of the way it braces the cutting steel. What also matters after a while is how well the hard steel is shaped/mated with the soft. Also what matters is whether the shaft is straight. Your argument about modern steels I reject, it does make a difference how skilled the blacksmith is.

We used to make chisels that held edges like the current Japanese tools do, they're laminated, and come in brands such as Witherby, Herring, Addis, Pexto, and so forth. I also use several of these old chisels. For the current western producers, I recommend Two Cherries, Pfeil, and Dastra. Many also like the LN chisels, but I have no experience.

Pam

[Pam Niedermayer]

Forgot to address your power tool/hand tool response. I use hand tools partly because of quiet, joy of use/feeling of achievement, use of electricity vs food to fuel the body, small shop; but I also love the quality of a surface on good wood made by high quality hand planes and chisels, far superior to sand paper. I often don't even need to finish the surface, and just love the feel of the raw, smooth, burnished wood.

Pam