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Thread: Need advice - I might get to build a new shop!

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Monroe, MI
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    11,896

    Need advice - I might get to build a new shop!

    We are considering making an offer on a new house. One of the things we are going to include in the offer is that the builder will need to build my shop. My wife and I have agreed that I should build the shop immediately rather than temporarily use the attached garage or basement because of noise and dust, especially in a brand new house. Who am I to argue with that logic?

    I've been working on a basic list of requirements for the shop to include in the offer. The plan is to have them put up the shell, run gas and electric, then I will finish the inside as time permits. Here is my list:

    Garage:
    - 24x32 garage/shop
    - frame construction
    - 1 9x7 door in 24’ wall facing road
    - 1 36” Steel entry door facing house
    - 2 36x36” double hung double pane windows facing house
    - Exterior finish (siding/shingles) to match house
    - 4” concrete slab with reinforcing mesh
    - min 1 row of block above finished slab
    - Underground natural gas line run to garage from house
    - 100A underground electrical service run to garage, installed as a subpanel to house panel. Panel to support min. 16 single pole circuits and match brand/type installed in house.
    - Door/Window placement to be approved by me before construction
    - Site plan to be approved by me before construction.

    Another question for those with "2-1/2 car" garages: will there be room for a lawn tractor, all the accessories, a grill, lawn furniture, and other assorted items in the garage with two cars? Our current house has a detached 22x20 garage with a 22x10 addition on the back that we use for storing all that stuff. I'm wondering if I should divide up the new space in a similar manner and add an additional, smaller overhead door into that space for getting the tractor in and out. Inside I'd have a door to access the space, which I wouldn't heat. I don't want to keep the tractor and stuff in the heated woodworking area. In the future we'd probably put up a shed for the tractor and stuff.
    Last edited by Matt Meiser; 08-11-2003 at 7:05 PM.

  2. #2
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    Chappell Hill, Texas
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    Go for as big a space as you can afford. Go with the highest ceiling you can get away with. Plan for the ceiling to support all the stuff you will store in the attic. Have the builder put a deck up there in full sheets so you don't have to squeeze it up there later. Make a separate space for anything that you don't want to have sawdust on (like a lawn tractor). Think about another roll-up door in the back if you ever want a breeze through the place. Polished concrete is good - stay away from any raised sections of flooring. Have him run a second empty conduit from the house, in case you want to run a phone or computer line later. Don't forget a 4" pipe for your toilet and sink... That should do it.
    Todd.

  3. #3
    I'd go with at least 9' ceiling, they make studs for them. Also maybe 2x6 walls. The cost difference between 2x4 walls and 2x6 is minimal, especially being able to have more insulation. Will make it more comfy, less heating bills. And yes, maybe wall off a section for you tractor and stuff.


  4. #4
    Join Date
    May 2003
    Location
    Renfrew, ON, Canada
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    18
    Hi Matt,

    Good suggestions so far. Higher ceilings are great for swinging around the lumber and radiant heat from above. Thicker walls and insulation keeps the heat in and it keeps it out.

    The only suggestion I'll make is a larger panel. 100A is great but breakers will chew up a 16 space panel quicker than you think. I'd go 24 or bigger. The cost isn't that much more.

    You're realizing what I day dream about. Have fun.


    Gump
    The smartest man in the world doesn't know everything, he just knows where to find the answers.

  5. #5
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    SE PA - Central Bucks County
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    Matt, in addition to the other comments, either make the big door a roll-up or something else that will not block the ceiling/lighting, etc. I also think you will be quite cramped if you have to dedicate space to storage of the lawn equipment, etc. If you can afford it...stretch that building a little longer for the storage space! It's easier and less expensive to do it now, rather than later...
    --

    The most expensive tool is the one you buy "cheaply" and often...

  6. #6
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    Mar 2003
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    Monroe, MI
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    Todd, Thanks, I almost forgot about the phone line. Although I've been wondering if those new cordless phones with remote units would work that far? It would be nice for me to be able to call into the house or vice-versa.

    Kevin, According to the sheet from the realtor, for some reason the house only has 150A service, which seems odd. If that is true, upgrading the house to 200A will be part of our offer. Then, I'll propose that they just move the house panel out to the garage and change out the main breaker if possible.

    Hopefully the builder will go for all of this. If not, I guess we keep looking!

  7. #7
    Hi Matt,

    you might like an extra room for finishing, too, and be sure to have 220 V.

    Regards,

    Christian

  8. #8
    Matt, Lots of really good advise already, so if I repeat something please forgive me. I did this very same thing a little over two years ago and I will tell you what I wish that I would have done differently. Mine is 20' X 40' X 10' ceilings.
    Rather than using engineered trusses for the roof they stick built it, resulting in two support columns in the middle of the shop. They take up a lot of room and are always in the way.
    The electrician laughed at me when I told him how many outlets that I wanted. Since then I have added 4 -240 volt and numerous more 120 volt outlets an still don't have enough. Go for all you can afford.
    Try to complete the inside before moving anything in. It is a real pain to do it after the fact.
    Like Jim said, consider a garage door that rolls up. Mine doesn't and it does create a dark corner.
    Depending on the sun and how you lay out the shop on your land, try to use your windows to let in as much light as possible. My windows are on the east side which gives me good light in the morning and none in the afternoon.
    Finish your concrete floor before you move in. Check out Terry Hatfields post on this. He did a great job on his.
    Plan, plan and plan some more. Where is your air compressor going (noisy), work benches and power equipment. Are you going to put in a dust collector in the future? How are you going to run the pipes for that.
    Security? I wish that I would have tied mine into the house system.
    And finally the phone. I ran the wire from the house to the shop but wound up using the wireless w/ intercom that you mentioned. Works great. I would say the receiver is about 150 feet away. Go with the 2.4 gig. Lots of luck.
    Wisdom comes with age, but sometimes age comes alone.
    Don

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by Don Farr
    Rather than using engineered trusses for the roof they stick built it, resulting in two support columns in the middle of the shop.
    Very good point. Engineered lumber and trusses are the only way to go and really don't cost much more, if any. The spans they can do are wonderful...my shop is 21' wide and the engineered joists require no support, yet are light-weight.

    Security? I wish that I would have tied mine into the house system.
    Excellent point. No matter where you live in the country, this is more and more of a requirement.

    And finally the phone. I ran the wire from the house to the shop but wound up using the wireless w/ intercom that you mentioned. Works great. I would say the receiver is about 150 feet away. Go with the 2.4 gig. Lots of luck.
    I currently use a 2.4ghz multiline phone sytem which gives both phone and intercom to the shop as well as the rest of the property...and down the road a short way! But it's generally a good idea to have conduit between the buildings, rather than just buried wires, so you can make future adjustments and additions for both telcom, LAN, CATV and security. You don't want to have to dig in the future.

    Also, I forgot to mention in my first post that "facilities" are a good idea if you can accomodate them. A laundry sink and a toilet are the best thing since sliced bread for both comfort and clean-up. I'll also be putting in a shower when I get the bathroom in my shop/office building.
    --

    The most expensive tool is the one you buy "cheaply" and often...

  10. #10
    I currently use a 2.4ghz multiline phone sytem which gives both phone and intercom to the shop as well as the rest of the property...and down the road a short way! But it's generally a good idea to have conduit between the buildings, rather than just buried wires, so you can make future adjustments and additions for both telcom, LAN, CATV and security. You don't want to have to dig in the future.

    I absolutely agree with the extra conduit. PVC is cheap if that is what he chooses to go with. I was just saying the phone does work very well at distances.
    This just give me an idea I bet I could use the unused phone line to tie into my house security.
    Wisdom comes with age, but sometimes age comes alone.
    Don

  11. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Don Farr
    I absolutely agree with the extra conduit. PVC is cheap if that is what he chooses to go with. I was just saying the phone does work very well at distances.
    It's important to use the correct material for your conduit to insure that it remains weather-proof and intact over time. The grey conduit made for the purpose is what you want...and be sure to leave a pull string in it!
    --

    The most expensive tool is the one you buy "cheaply" and often...

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Allen, TX
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    217
    Ah, you lucky guy...

    Some added suggestions (which some hit on already):
    - 4" sewer so you can have a head - if you want it.
    - I'd run one of these new 'multi-media' cables (don't know what they're
    called...). But it's a couple of Cat-5 cables, Coax, etc. all bundled
    into one cable. This would allow you to run all kinds of electronics
    between the house and shop. (Intercom, TV signal, phone, internet
    connection, etc...) You won't use all of them now, but I bet down
    the road you will...
    - I'd also run additional low voltage wire for remote locks. They have
    locks that you can either remotely lock, or have at least detectors
    that will tell you if they are locked. But some 'indicators' at your
    main house that tell you if the doors are locked and lights off in the
    shop are very VERY handy. (My father rigged something like this for
    his and it's VERY nice...) Sort of fits into the security suggestion.
    - 10' ceilings are a must!


    Perry

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Collin County Texas
    Posts
    2,417

    Some Ideas.

    Hi Matt. There is a lot of good advice posted above. Let me tell you what I did for my new shop.

    1) If you think you will have enough room, then add about 30 percent to it.
    2) Plan for a separate finishing room.
    3) Use at least 2x6 wall studs. I used 8" structural insulated panels for a R30 insulation.
    4) There is no need to have support posts in the shop. Use I-joists! Our garage attached to the house is 25x34 and there are no support posts -- all I-joists running the 25 ft, front to back. The shop has no post either.
    5) Do have plywood decking in the attic.
    6) Do have at least 12" of insulation in the attic.
    7) Do have a 200 Amp service installed. I have a separate meter for my shop.
    8) Put a 240v/20a outlet with every second 120v wall outlet.
    9) Consider a trench in the concrete floor for dust collection piping and power to the big tools.
    10) Don't forget to include several 240v/30a outlets for dust collector and table saw, etc.
    11) Do include an HVAC system.
    12) Keep the garage part separate from the shop. You don't want winter "stuff" contaminating your shop area and wood.
    13) Do lay a 3" plastic electrical conduit between the house and shop for phone lines, intercom, computer connection, and TV coax. (I have two of them which supports my shop, radio room, and 2 car garage.
    14) Don't plan on putting your lawn tractor, etc, in the house garage, add a 2 car garage to the shop for the "farm equipment."
    15) I put 24"x48" windows up high in the 10 ft wall. Get all the natural light but not the direct sun light.
    16) Do use 10 ft high walls.
    17) I used french style double doors for a shop entrance. They are Stanley insulated steel, and surely make a difference. On a hot afternoon, you can't stand to put your hand on the outside, but the inside is barely warm. Don't use garage doors unless you get the Overhead Garage Door Co. R17 insulated doors. (We have them in our garages which face south. When it was 109 outside with the sun shining on the doors, it was only 90 in the garage!
    18) Put Quad outlets instead of just duplex. Run each duplex in the quad box on a separate circuit. If one breaker pops, you still have power in the other duplex outlet.

    My shop, radio room, finishing room, and 2 car garage is over 1400 sq-ft on the slab. Things I would do different:
    1) The shop is only 23x24. It should be more like 24x30.
    2) The radio room and finishing rooms are only 8x12. Should be at least 10x12.
    3) It would be nice to have the garage a little wider and deeper. The F-150 just fits with only about 4 ft in front, and almost nothing at the rear.

    These are the things I did last year along with some "do differents." Do it right the first time so that you can spend your time in the shop, not on the shop.
    Last edited by Ken Garlock; 08-12-2003 at 1:36 PM.
    Best Regards, Ken

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    South Windsor, CT
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    3,304

    New Shop

    Matt,

    I was lucky enough to get the basement of the addition in our house as my new workshop. It's nominally 32'x 24', although that's to the outside of the concrete walls. Inside dimensions are closer to 30'x23'. Here's what I've learned about taking a space and making it a workshop.

    Before I start, you have a lot of good ideas with what you've already laid out. Here are some things that strike me as things to consider on the "requirements list".

    • Bigger is better. By the time I get all my machinery in the shop, it will be cramped. I've got some big machinery (stealth gloat - part of my house trim project included some serious mega-machinery upgrades) and the floor space disappears quickly when you look at big toys.
    • You are not going to want to store garden tractors and the like in your workshop, even temporarily. They well get covered with sawdust and will introduce dampness etc. to your workshop.
    • In Michigan, your climate is similar to Connecticut. I know that you swing from snow in winter to hot and sticky in summer. Radiant heat is a nice idea, but the way to do it is in the poured slab. Radiant heat is efficient and, by keeping the basic shop and machinery warm, you will reduce/eliminate condensation on your tools and the resultant rust problem.
    • Ceiling height is crucial. Leave your ceiling as open as possible, with nothing but lights, dust collection ducting and electrical chases running up there. My ceiling is low - 6'6" to the bottom of the floor trusses (couldn't be helped), so I'm recessing everything up between the trusses to save evry inch of headroom. The height restricts machine size purchases (bandsaw, for example) and makes swinging lumber a major PITA.
    • Plan to cover your slab with a layer of 3/4 plywood or flakeboard. It saves tools when you drop something, still lets you roll around machinery and is a softer surface to stand on than concrete.
    • Some of the other posts hint at this, but you want a bathroom in the shop. There's the obvious reason, but also the need for a deep sink and water to cleanup from finishing, etc. A counter for a microwave would be nice and under counter refrig. Even a stall shower to clean
    • You want a separate machine room for your boiler/furnace/hot water heater and compressor. This keeps those out of the dusty woodworking environment.


    So - how would I modify your building plans?
    • As has already been suggested, build a longer shop. Make the first 8' to 12' walled off storage space for the garden stuff. Have a 9' garage door from the outside. Put an 8' door from the storage area into the shop. That way they can both open into the same overhead space in the storage area. The only time you'd need to open both up is when you're trying to get stuff into the shop. Make the next 8' to 12' the space for enclosed systems and bathroom. You could allow a 8x8 bathroom on one side, 8x8 garage door in the middle, 8x8 "boiler room" on the opther side, including a 4x5 corner taken out for your DC/cyclone. This then leaves you an open shop space without worrying about your basic building mechanicals. I klnow this makes for a shop that's 48' to 60' long, but you're better off building that once. If you make the garden section 16' deep, you could park a 3rd car in the middle, provided it's not a full size pickup. Your 'Cuda Hemi ragtop would fit :-)
    • I'd absolutely insist on 200 amp service for your house. 100 amp service in the shop is a minimum; I'd even run 150 amp service to the shop. I'm faced with the potential for a load of 100+ amps just by running 2 machines simultaneously + dust collection and that's without any of the systems stuff like lighting, air compressor or building mechanicals.
    • Go with a 10' ceiling. That gives you easy room to swing 8' lumber and not whack your lights, ducts or whatever.
    • Think about some sort of dehumidification system for the summe rmonths. Air conditioning would perfect, also the most expensive. Remember that you'd need to allow for extra filtering with A/C because of the wood dust. Absolutely consider radiant in the slab. A gas hot water heater is all you need to heat the whole shop.
    • Frame the ceiling such that you can access the attic for storage. Consider steel to keep your shop area free from lolly columns.


    Boy - is it easy to spend your money! If you have questions, holler.

    Rob

  15. #15
    Join Date
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    Put your windows up high on the east & west ends & up high any where else you think you'll need light. Up high enough that no one can see in through them.
    I usually find it much easier to be wrong once in while than to try to be perfect.

    My web page has a pop up. It is a free site, just close the pop up on the right side of the screen

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