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Thread: Dowels or biscuits?

  1. #1
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    Dowels or biscuits?

    columns.jpg

    I have all the parts for the side posts of the gates cut out. I just need to plane them to make them all the same thickness and assemble. I was thinking about assembling the pieces with a couple of dowels in each joint. Then I thought about biscuits but I think that the dowels will add some strength.

    I also thought about whipping out a jig and doing mortise and loose tenons but I don't think there is much advantage over a couple of dowels. Just thought I would ask. Someone might have a better idear.

  2. #2
    I would use Dowels! Biscuits would be a lot easier, but think dowels will provide a stronger joint.

    -Don

  3. #3
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    Dowels ARE a mortise and tenon joint! (just small ones) So are biscuits, for that matter. In this case, I'd opt for larger dowels...ie, floating tenon to provide not only alignment, but a real boost in joint strength.
    --

    The most expensive tool is the one you buy "cheaply" and often...

  4. #4
    I vote dowels, for the same reasons Jim posted.
    "When we build, let us think that we build forever." - Ruskin

  5. #5
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    Thats what I was thinking, dowels are perfect for this application. Strong enough and reasonable quick to make. Just a firm believer in two heads are better than one!

  6. #6
    Jeff, Iagree with every body, use dowels. With all due respect to Norm, the only use for biscuits is to help align boards.
    Last edited by Larry Rose; 06-22-2006 at 8:36 AM.

  7. #7
    I don't know what it is you are building so it's rather hard to contemplate how the loads will work out. I do like the shapes and design even without knowing what it is.

    Since it's too late to advocate for real M&T joints I concur with the group so far. Dowel it.

  8. #8
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    It probably doesn't need to be said again, but just incase there was any doubt. Dowels are my vote.

  9. #9
    Would anyone use the Miller Dowels on a project like that? I know you would see the heads of the dowels but it looks good sometimes depending on the project.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Larry Rose
    Jeff, Iagree with every body, use dowels. With all due respect to Norm, the only use for biscuits is to help align boards.
    hi larry,

    well, i'll add my vote for dowels as well! but, i'm curious about your statement re biscuits being only good for aligning boards. i have seen biscuits recommended in a lot of woodworking articles and in forum postings as a good joinery method - an easy alternative, in some cases, to dowels. in fact, quite often i've seen biscuits referred to as 'crazy strong'!

    i'd be very curious to know what everyone's opinion is on the use of biscuits - i have a dewalt biscuit joiner and would sure like some feedback on use and acceptable applications.
    Rick in Cowichan Bay, B.C. Canada - 30 miles north of Victoria, B.C.

  11. #11
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    No allergy to biscuits here...

    Quote Originally Posted by Rick Doyle
    hi larry,

    well, i'll add my vote for dowels as well! but, i'm curious about your statement re biscuits being only good for aligning boards. i have seen biscuits recommended in a lot of woodworking articles and in forum postings as a good joinery method - an easy alternative, in some cases, to dowels. in fact, quite often i've seen biscuits referred to as 'crazy strong'!

    i'd be very curious to know what everyone's opinion is on the use of biscuits - i have a dewalt biscuit joiner and would sure like some feedback on use and acceptable applications.
    I'm not sure about "crazy strong" but I'm also skeptical of the "they add NO strength" argument. I recall an article in a magazine years ago where a post secondary school did controlled testing on M&T vs Biscuits vs Butt joints etc. in a door type joint, tested to destruction on a testing machine. The double biscuit joint didn't fare badly at all. A problem as I recall was the failure mode, it wasn't gradual but rather abrupt.

    The biggest problem I see with biscuits in this application is biscuits need pieces with dimensions larger than the biscuit. I doubt the 2X2 joints would hide a biscuit, so are an appropriate place for dowels. It seems like a case of proper tool (or joint) for the job. There are places where biscuits are appropriate, and places where they aren't

    Curt

  12. #12
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    Well I think maybe dowels are in order?

    Quote Originally Posted by Cliff Rohrabacher
    I don't know what it is you are building so it's rather hard to contemplate how the loads will work out. I do like the shapes and design even without knowing what it is.
    I guess I assumed everyone could read my mind.

    It is a Gate and arbor that I posted in the design forum. If your like me you don't read that group that often.

    Should be very little load or stress (if any) on these grills. They are basically ornamental. They will be mounted inside posts that will be 4x4 or 4x6, not sure which yet. There is a large beam across the top that ties the posts together and then a pair of gates that will hang off the posts.

  13. #13
    i am just finishing a chimney cupboard/display case where i used biscuit joinery for the cabinet door frame. the door will hold 3 x 3mm glass panels in rabbets cut in the back of the door. after installing the glass yesterday and moving the door around a bit, i'm quite positive that the biscuits will be more than strong enough. it really seems solid. here's a pic of the door before i had the glass panels installed:

    chimney_1093_sm.jpg
    Rick in Cowichan Bay, B.C. Canada - 30 miles north of Victoria, B.C.

  14. #14
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    Biscuits are easier to apply but I suspect Dowels would be slightly stronger, I built 2 garden benches a few years ago of cedar and I doweled each on the slats top and bottom. Took time but its held up well.
    Jerry

  15. #15
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    I am not sure I should enter this conversation regarding biscuits, I am not nearly as experienced as some. I have used biscuits for years, and have never, ever, had a failure. The study cited above was not as "scientific" as some would like but it showed difinitively that the biscuit joint was very strong, nearly equal to MT joints. The abrupt break by the way was not at the biscuit joint but in the wood itself. If you google a question on strength of a biscuit joint you will find that study -- it is worth reading.

    Harley

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