'Nother water heater question...

[Monte Milanuk]

Ok, this one has me scratchin' the ole noggin.

Moved into a new (to us) house a couple months ago. Seemed like the water supply wasn't as prodigous as we were used to... initially wrote it off to having an 82 gallon tank in the last house vs. a 50 here now. It got to the point where one person could take a shower... second one was SOL for hot water until a half-hour to an hour later.

Then *no* hot water to speak of. Went downstairs to the basement /shop area where the tank is nestled behind an insulating box... could definitely smell some loose 'magic smoke'. A *lot* of it in fact. The breaker hadn't tripped (yikes) and I found the upper element heater melted, charred, w/ a bead of slag coming out of the contacts. Replaced that, ohm'ed out the elements which both seemed good (13 ohms each) w/ the Fluke 79. Now we had hot water again, but still not for any length of time. It's slowly been getting worse.

The tank is as I mentioned, back behind a built-in case that surrounds and insulates it. To get to *that*, I have to remove a large cabinet/bench (looks like an old kitchen cabinet), remove half the stuff off my shelves (one end is held up by the surround for the tank), etc. Based on the PITA factor for getting to the tank, we figured maybe the previous owner hadn't drained the sediment out of it for a (long) while and it may have built up to where it was taking up a chunk of tank space. Drained the tank... nothing. Valve operated smoothly (i.e. not like it'd been untouched for 10 years), and the water was clear and free of sediment.

To recap... I run out of hot water by the end of one normal shower, both heating elements ohm out good AFAIK, I've replaced the lower contactor, both thermostats are set close to max... I've got *hot* water (almost too damn hot)... just not enough of it. The tank has been drained, no sediment visible...

Ideas? I hate just replacing the whole tank out of hand, but I'm running out of things to try here.

Thanks,

Monte

[Ken Fitzgerald]

Monte........did you actually pull both elements and physically inspect them. I live and die by my Fluke everyday and have for over 30 years. ....but...I've had electric elements in my previous water heater....they'd nearly erode into......they'd check okay with a meter.....and yet there was just a thread actually making the path at the end of the element. Not much current would flow through it. If you haven't pulled both the elements and inspected them...it might be worth your effort.

Currently we have a NG water heater.

[Monte Milanuk]

Ken,

After digging into things a little more, I found the installation manual hiding in the cavity inside the surround. It had the original wiring schematic which does match how I wired things back up after that top thermostat slagged (it was a mess!). More importantly... it shows the contacts inside the thermostat, and I was a little surprised to see that in this configuration (what they term a 'double element, non-simultaneous operation) the lower element can't turn on until the upper thermostat flops over. Might be a no-brainer for some here, but I hate it when I can't see what the contacts are inside a sealed switch Right now the tank has been refilled and the upper element is on... now I just need to see if it 'flops over' to make up the circuit for the lower element as well. The lower thermostat is made up, just waiting to see if the upper thermostat plays along. If it don't... well, guess I'll be finding a new upper thermostat, and I may drain it again and yank the elements while I'm at it.

Thanks,

Monte

[Frank Hagan]

Also check to make sure you don't have any air trapped in the tank ... usually they put the outlet at the top so all the air is easily purged during normal operation.

It probably is your other element not coming on, though.

[Al Willits]

Rule of thumb is to replace all the elements and thermostats if there's any doubt, the cost of the parts is low enough to be worth doing it at one time, versus piece by piece.

Once the sediment has turned to scale you won't get it out anyway, but I don't think that's your problem.

I might suspect the dip tube being the cause here, especially with the fairly quick recovery time.

Having the elements staggered is fairly common, upper comes on first to supply hot water quicker and when its satisfied power goes to the bottom element.
They can be wired in several different ways, but this is prob the most common.

Al

[Monte Milanuk]

Well... assuming I'm on the right page w/ you guys as far as the 'dip tube' being the cold water supply line that goes to the bottom of the tank (wouldn't make a lot of sense for it to dump the cold right in the middle of the freshly heated stuff at the top of the tank!)... I don't think it's bad. Here's why: when I was initially attempting to drain the tank, I had the cold water supply still on (wanted to wash out any sediment in the bottom of the tank... the water coming out the hose (under considerable pressure) was cold, but the pipes coming out the top of the tank were still hot, and when I shut the drain spigot and opened a hot-water faucet upstairs... the water that came out was still hot. The pipes at the top of the tank were still hot until I closed the cold water supply, popped the relief valve and re-opened the drain, and the water finally drained down a ways. Based on all of this, I don't think the dip tube is the problem... do you?

FWIW, I tweaked the thermostats last night... turned down the upper one and turned up the lower one... think I may have to turn the lower one back down... the water this morning was *very* hot. I'm kind of wondering if that was the problem... the upper element was staying on too much of the time, not allowing the lower element to heat the bulk of the tank? The drain spigot was warm to the touch this morning, so I think the lower element is working. The second person is in taking their shower now, so we'll see if there's enough water now

[Monte Milanuk]

Well... dang it all. Second person (daughter) took a shower about an hour after mine, and the only thing that ran in the interim was the dish washer, which recircs so it doesn't use a lot of hot water once it gets going. She reported 'ffffffreezing cold' by the end of the shower, so something still ain't right. Guess I'm off to the Borg or Lowes for new thermostats and elements.

[Al Willits]

It doesn't sound like the dip tube, much easier to check with a gas water heater, but replacing the stats and elements on a 10 year (?) old water heater can't hurt, especially if axcess is difficult.

Always had a bit of trouble with dip tubes and electric wh's, usually ended up removing it for inspection if all else failed.
Maybe someone else has a better/easier way to check the tube??

Good luck and let us know what happens.

Al

[Monte Milanuk]

Just finished re-filling the tank... put about $45 worth of parts (including the cheezy sheet-metal socket for the elements) into it... new 4500w elements and thermostats top and bottom.

The good news is the elements came out w/o any problem, and everything is buttoned up, no leaks and looks to be working OK.

The weird part... is that the upper element was a little crusted, and the lower element looks almost new! Shone a flashlight in the element ports as best I could... tank looks to be in dang good condition inside, no buildup as far as I could tell whatsoever.

Tank is about 10 years old... I was hoping to get it to last another couple years, and then when I re-do the basement shop to suit my tastes, which will involve removing the partition wall and the old cruddy cabinets around it. Figured that way I can start over w/ a clean slate... and put a bigger tank in while I'm at it. Or at least make it easier to get to.

If this don't fix the problem... it probably will be a new tank, and the old one will be on it's way to the dump. Might stop off at the gun range though and run a few clips through the AR-15 on the way, though!

[Al Willits]

Something else to check if ya want, do you have any of the one control fascets, where ya turn a lever or knob to contol hot/cold water?
One of them could be by passing, sorry I should have thought of that before.

Considering there ain't much to these things, replacing the elements and stats have already eliminated 90% of what goes wrong with them.

If ya still have problems I'd check the dip tube and for a by passing fascet.

Shut the water off to the tank but not the house and see if any of the mixing fascets let water though when in the full hot posistion, they shouldn't.

I wouldn't give up now...

Al

[Monte Milanuk]

Well... here's the latest. Still ran out of hot water by the end of the second shower. Finally got ahold of a friend that is a plumber, and he came over. Checked the tank, the heaters, the thermostats, etc. and we discussed the dip tube... everything was fine there, other than I need to bend the bracket for the lower thermostat back so it bears against the tank more... should cut down on the scalding hot water. We looked at the three water appliances that have the one-handle mixing valve setup... the kitchen sink, and both showers. He said all were newer high quality units that typically don't have bypass issues due to their construction, but we went ahead and turned off the hot water and tested them... all fine.

At this point, he said the only thing left short of pulling the tank apart to make *sure* the dip tube is intact is to pull the shower heads off and see if the previous owner might have yanked the flow restrictor orifices... he said if they are missing from both showers, it could be possible that we really are going thru 40 gallons or so of hot water inside of two showers. I'll probably be taking those apart tomorrow to check... trying to get ahold of the previous owner to see if he knows anything along those lines...

I'd planned on 'upgrading' to a 80 gallon unit in a year or so when I re-do the basement shop... not sure if I can squeak by that long though.

[Al Willits]

So close ya can taste it...ain't much left that can be wrong...

Might want to note that you won't get a full 40 gallons of hot water from a 40 gal tank, as the water is used the incoming cold water will cool the tank, and electrics are not noted for fast recovery times.

One of the troubles with dianosing over the innernet is its easy to miss a needed fact or two, be a shame to find out now all it was that your just running out of hot water because of long showers.

Good part is ya have a refurbished water heater now and if ya get the shower takers to either shorten their showers or space them apart a bit more you should be ok, assuming its just running out of hot water.

Al

[Monte Milanuk]

Al,

Figured forty gallons or so of hot water from a *fifty* gallon heater, but I hear ya!

Talked w/ the previous owner, and he confirmed that there never were any flow restrictors put in (he's a custom home renovation type of craftsman... everything in the house is custom or nice/high quality) as they liked the additional water flow/pressure. At this point I figure thats probably it and will likely go ahead and reassemble the surround, the bench (my reloading and gun-work benches) and shelves and live w/ it until I put in a new tank down the road.

Thanks for all the support!

Monte