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Thread: #4 Blade question

  1. #16
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    Bob, that's why I prefer the old laid on blades that are tapered. The blister steel that was forge welded to wrought iron for chisels and plane blades, is harder than hades and seems to hold an edge forever for me. The soft wrought back gives the thin blister steel stability from cracking and breakage, thus it can be harder and last longer.

    I pick up all those old tapered blades I can find as they are going to be a thing of the past soon and unavailable. I do cut some of them up for making blades for my shopmade planes and as replacements for my woody plow plane.
    Jr.
    Hand tools are very modern- they are all cordless
    NORMAL is just a setting on the washing machine.
    Be who you are and say what you feel... because those that matter... don't mind...and those that mind...don't matter!
    By Hammer and Hand All Arts Do Stand

  2. Nah, Bob. Pretty cynical. People post for a multitude of reasons. I think one of which, when new-to-them tools are involved, is to share a common like for tools--new or vintage--with someone who will care. No big deal.

    I enjoy reading of people's journeys in using them and would like to think I help somewhat in their use and care. As I am sure you do.

    If people choose to share more of the tools they have bought, cleaned and tuned more so than what they do with them...why should I care?

    Often, these same people post what is built in another one of SMC's forums, but that doesn't mean they might not have used some of these tools they show here to make it.
    An A2 edge only lasts slightly longer because the steel is slightly harder, and harder steel takes longer to sharpen. You might feel better, but you really don't gain a lot
    Kind of like using a Witherby instead of a cheap Stanley? Aside from aesthetics and ergonomics, what else is there to be gained hunting for Witherbys and Swans if it isn't to obtain a better chisel who's edge will last longer? Gotta be something as you recommend hunting them down. And they can cost every bit as much as an AI--if not more. But with either, one gets better steel which holds an edge a bit longer than a Stanley.

    It ain't about "feeling better." It's about taking less breaks from the work in order to hone a chisel made from putty.
    Personally, I'm beginning to think the hand tool world is becoming more and more about status and aquisition that woodworking.
    Just beginning? And just limited to the hand tool world? And just in this day and age?

    Again, I think it was good someone thought enough of "high-end" tools, say like Disston 12s and 16s, to have paid the premium price way back when so we would have relatively easy pickings in our day. Same with Bedrocks. And infills. And English saws. And Witherby chisels. And Swans. Speaking of which, when I bought my wife a set of Swan turning tools, and adjusted by inflation etc., I think I paid less for a near-new set than the original owner.

    So it is today. 100 years from now, when the Stanleys are all used up, I bet there will be people glad that someone bought a premium LN plane so they could pick it up in a flea market for a song.

    Take care, Mike
    who's done now...

  3. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Smalser
    The reliance on ready-tuned prestige planes, Tormeks, etc, et al among the various hand tool forum participants tells me either they are overcome with brand-name status, could use some coaching, or both. Plenty have sure come by here, and I've tried a lot of high-speed planes.

    All this stuff has to have practical application in materials or manhours to be really meaningful.
    In my case, I really started using planes in March, and didn't really decide not to go the power tool route until April. That means I've accumulated a fair number of planes in a short time so I could do a variety of things.

    And this is the Great Newbie Problem: sudden acquisition of several planes, and wanting to USE planes. Now, if I acquired one a year (on average) that needed fettling, that'd be one thing. But thirty in three months? I'd never get any woodworking done.

    Nearly every plane I received had a severe nick in the blade. Now I *know* how to regrind a blade without power tools (and grinders, but I really hate grinders), but in order to get the planes I'd acquired to work at all, I'd need to spend significant time. I could either get a Tormek and get them done, or be so frustrated spending all my woodworking time doing something I didn't enjoy that I'd give up.

    This happened to someone I know, btw.

    Well, I got the Tormek, but I'm still not done regrinding blades.... Some of the planes I got a couple of months ago still aren't useful (for a number of reasons, which I'm working through), so the value I've gotten out of these planes sold at a generally good price is $0. So, my question: how were they rationalized in "practical application in materials or manhours"? Answer: they weren't. Period. They could be eventually, but they're not now.

    How come the LN's aren't "practical application in materials or manhours" when they work right out of the box with a light honing? Answer: they are.

    Now, if I mentioned that some of my woodworking time comes out of possible consulting time, and an LN #4 costs four hours of consulting (pre-tax), maybe you'll see that a few hours spent fettling a plane may make it more expensive than just buying the darn LV or LN plane in the first place.

    Me, I'd rather spend time woodworking than fussing around not woodworking.

  4. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Deirdre Saoirse Moen
    In my case, I really started using planes in March, and didn't really decide not to go the power tool route until April.
    That long, eh?

    Y'all obviously know best, then. If there's anything I can help with, it'll probably be somewhere in here:

    Courtesy of Bob Smalser


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    “Perhaps then, you will say, ‘But where can one have a boat like that built today?’ And I will tell you that there are still some honest men who can sharpen a saw, plane, or adze...men (who) live and work in out of the way places, but that is lucky, for they can acquire materials for one third of city prices. Best, some of these gentlemen’s boatshops are in places where nothing but the occasional honk of a wild goose will distract them from their work.” -- L Francis Herreshoff

  5. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Smalser
    That long, eh?

    Y'all obviously know best, then. If there's anything I can help with, it'll probably be somewhere in here:
    Wow, thanks for all the references.

    Yeah, that long. I was a real Normite years ago and it took me a while to realize that a) I could learn to do everything by hand and b) I wanted to learn to.

    I'm not in great physical shape. On the one hand, this made me reluctant to go the hand tool route, because it is more physical. On the other hand, I realized it was physical work I enjoyed. I love planing. Until I discovered that, I wasn't really willing to commit to the neander path.

  6. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Deirdre Saoirse Moen
    ... it took me a while to realize that a) I could learn to do everything by hand and b) I wanted to learn to.

    I'm not in great physical shape. On the one hand, this made me reluctant to go the hand tool route, because it is more physical. On the other hand, I realized it was physical work I enjoyed. I love planing. Until I discovered that, I wasn't really willing to commit to the neander path.
    It's not an "either-or" choice between hand an power....and not really about tools at all....it's about making things outta wood.

    Don't be afraid to use the power tools where they make sense for your work and your body, and the hand tools where they make sense. Once you learn to split and plane out a board from a tree, you don't have to keep repeating those same grunt skills, and spending too much time there will be at the detriment of fit-and-finish skills where hand tools really come into their own. Think of the basic electric motors as your apprentices, if you like.

    Even for those interested more in the history and use of hand tools than woodworking, you'll never come to any real level of skill unless you make a maturing series of completed projects instead of just shavings and simple shop fixtures. Visualization, design, stock selection, measuring, layout, etc, all are tied in to an economy of effort you won't acquire otherwise...where you learn that pushing more tool than you need is wasted effort better spent elsewhere.
    Last edited by Bob Smalser; 07-23-2006 at 11:46 PM.
    “Perhaps then, you will say, ‘But where can one have a boat like that built today?’ And I will tell you that there are still some honest men who can sharpen a saw, plane, or adze...men (who) live and work in out of the way places, but that is lucky, for they can acquire materials for one third of city prices. Best, some of these gentlemen’s boatshops are in places where nothing but the occasional honk of a wild goose will distract them from their work.” -- L Francis Herreshoff

  7. The post which begins...

    "It's not an "either-or" choice between hand an power....and not really about tools at all....it's about making things outta wood"

    is a really good post, Bob.

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Smalser
    It's not an "either-or" choice between hand an power....and not really about tools at all....it's about making things outta wood.
    Mike's right -- this is a beautiful quote.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Smalser
    Don't be afraid to use the power tools where they make sense for your work and your body, and the hand tools where they make sense.
    It's odd that I made the commitment to hand tools only a few weeks before we moved into a house I'd never seen -- that turns out not to have power in the area we'd designated for my shop. I do have access to some large power tools (and do use them when they make sense), but mostly I have a couple of smaller ones. I'm still having difficulty with hand sawing, and I'm practicing that skill.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Smalser
    Even for those interested more in the history and use of hand tools than woodworking, you'll never come to any real level of skill unless you make a maturing series of completed projects instead of just shavings and simple shop fixtures. Visualization, design, stock selection, measuring, layout, etc, all are tied in to an economy of effort you won't acquire otherwise...where you learn that pushing more tool than you need is wasted effort better spent elsewhere.
    I agree about the completed projects.

    Right now, I'm working on a couple of projects using only hand tools, and a bigger project that's using a mix. As it's gotten hotter, my work has slowed down quite a bit, so I'm hoping we get another cool spell soon. It's almost cool enough tonight to head out to the shop.

  9. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Smalser
    It's not an "either-or" choice between hand an power....and not really about tools at all....it's about making things outta wood.
    Already been quoted, but I need to quote this also. For me, I realized that I don't want to spend time dimensioning my timber/lumber, but that I do enjoy working with hand tools. I have a pile of lumber I've dimensioned for a workbench, and to think about dimensioning all of that lumber by hand makes my brain hurt.

    I hope to be doing what you're doing now, that is to build a house. No question that building a house is the ultimate woodworking project that one can tackle. I certainly won't be building my house entirely by hand, but I will do hand cut joinery wherever possible.

    Interesting to note that in the early 1900s when machines had first progressed to the point that motors were added and flat belts were used, several companies that created powered machinery printed numbers of how much more productive some of the machines were. It should be no surprise that a single machine could do 10x-20x in a day than a person could do by hand.

    The best woodworkers work smart, IMO, the lesser work a lot harder.
    --
    Life is about what your doing today, not what you did yesterday! Seize the day before it sneaks up and seizes you!

    Alan - http://www.traditionaltoolworks.com:8080/roller/aland/

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by tod evans
    . i`d be hesitant to take a file to a bedrock but that`s just me ....02 tod
    ...yeh, I know what you mean. It can be hard to modify something that becomes precious I suppose.

    Spose I'm a little different. Typical Australian. A lot of us think of tools as just that,,,many of us treat them badly......not very romantic. But, I can't stop thinking, that there's no point in owning a tool that doesn't perfrom well.

    I think in the past, I've put a few into shock with some of the things I've done to my planes.

    Glad to hear you fixed the shaving problem Bob.

  11. Quote Originally Posted by Jake Darvall
    ...Spose I'm a little different. Typical Australian. A lot of us think of tools as just that,,,many of us treat them badly......not very romantic. But, I can't stop thinking, that there's no point in owning a tool that doesn't perfrom well....
    I was probably born on the wrong continent then

    Never bothers me to alter a tool if it cannot or doesn't otherwise work properly. That's why files were created...

    Take care, Mike

  12. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Smalser
    An A2 edge only lasts slightly longer because the steel is slightly harder, and harder steel takes longer to sharpen.
    Yeah, wait til those same folks who couldn't get their Stanley blade sharp, try to tackle the A2...

    Even some of the older Stanley blades are VERY hard...getting them in good shape takes some effort. A sharpening tool has nothing to do with power or hand, and many woodworkers will really screw a blade up with either. Wether it be using a power grinder, a water stone, and modern system (Tormek, Lap-Sharp, Delta, Jet, etc...), scary sharp, etc...it's only a means to the end. I personally wonder how any woodworker can not afford to know how to sharpen their tools. Yet there are hordes of folks that have not acheived this skill and even some will buy a new tool rather than learn to sharpen their old ones. Disposable Japanese saws are a good case in point. Not to dis Japanese saws, this is not meant...someone who owns a decent Japanese saw and sharpens it themself should be respected just the same. Many great woodworkers will use a Razor dozuki and just replace the blade once a year. Nothing wrong with that, IMO, as long as they get to their end.

    There should be shame in not being able to keep your tools sharp, however one prefers to do that, and stereotyping folks into painted corners is not ideal in the real world either, since there are so many various folks enjoying woodworking with various interest and skill levels.

    I somehow suspect that even you would turn your grinder on if one of your chisels gets a big chip in it, Bob. Or would you use a file like our forefathers? They would have told you that you didn't need to buy one of those fancy powered grinders. Yet, the fact is that when powered grinders came along, folks learned that they could save time by using them, and time is after all a very good motivator.

    I'm not sure if owning modern tools is a sin or not, and I own new and old of both power and hand tools. If it saves them time, more power to them, or if they enjoy using it more, all the more as well. You do advocate that folks work wood with whatever tools they happen to own, don't you? This is after all the means to the end, where no matter what tools one owns, they use them to craft wood into a finished work.The level of detail folks go to depends entirely on the individual and typically shows in their work as a result. Some use new modern tools to do that, and others use old tools. I can't see how either are bad.

    Owning a new handcrafted joinery saw certainly doesn't make me cut joinery any better, yet I like using it, and I do keep it sharp. More importantly is using it so that it needs to be sharpened, and this is the means to the end.
    Last edited by Alan DuBoff; 07-24-2006 at 5:40 AM.
    --
    Life is about what your doing today, not what you did yesterday! Seize the day before it sneaks up and seizes you!

    Alan - http://www.traditionaltoolworks.com:8080/roller/aland/

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Wenzloff
    I was probably born on the wrong continent then

    Never bothers me to alter a tool if it cannot or doesn't otherwise work properly. That's why files were created...

    Take care, Mike
    absolutely.

    You and Bob having a little disagreement I noticed ?

    Interesting conversation though.

    I can relate entirely with having a hard blade. So, I can see that attraction to the A2 blade. On the kind of hardwoods we work here in Australia, its just pointless using some of the regular stanley blades on them. Just too soft. Blunten up too quickly. Its not a subtle difference either. Just plain obvious. Only just a few passes and your back to the sharpening station again,,,,

    I know its slower sharpening a hard steel, but thats no problem if you avoid stones. Doesn't matter how hard the blade is, if you learn how to sharpen to burr on white bench grinder, then straight to hard felt buffing wheel. (IMO)....I practise this regularily shaping blades from old hand files.

    I also definetly agree that a thicker blade reduces chatter. Thicker the better I believe. I started a thread on an experiment I tried a while ago....where I put an overly thick matherson iron from an old woodie into a stanley #6
    http://www.woodworkforums.ubeaut.com...ng+thick+blade

    Completely different feel to it, with such a thick iron installed. Solid uncompromising feel quite unlike how it is with those 2mm regular blades. I've noticed thin blades, even when they don't chatter, often flex down slightly on the start of cut with some timbers, and back up again as you leave your stock......uno, can feel it through your hands. Never have that feeling with this overly thick blade. It either cuts or just slides when it bluntens....none of this jumpy behaviour.....But thats just my impression.

    But interesting in what Bob Smalser mean't when he said this...

    . Another half-turn on the mounting screw after the iron is set will cure chatter.....

    Not sure if that always helps, Bob. I've tried all sorts of things when planing certain timbers with a tuned hand plane loaded with a thin blade, including tightening it up.....but it sounds like a good idea to keep in mind. Your basically saying that more tension at the blade edge is required....which means that you'd have to release the screw a half-turn before attempting to remove the blade when its time to re-sharpen.

    Sounds like a good idea to reduce chatter. But, why not reduce it more by having a thicker blade ? .....a good half turn on a thicker harder blade sounds much better doesn't it. just kidding. Don't take me seriously please.

    The only problem I have with new blades is the cost. Which is where Bob's point lies I think. Is the cost worth the improvement, cause you can often get by just fine without them.....

    Interesting stuff.
    Last edited by Jake Darvall; 07-24-2006 at 7:24 AM.

  14. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Alan DuBoff
    There should be shame in not being able to keep your tools sharp, however one prefers to do that, and stereotyping folks into painted corners is not ideal in the real world either, since there are so many various folks enjoying woodworking with various interest and skill levels.

    I somehow suspect that even you would turn your grinder on if one of your chisels gets a big chip in it, Bob. Or would you use a file like our forefathers? They would have told you that you didn't need to buy one of those fancy powered grinders. Yet, the fact is that when powered grinders came along, folks learned that they could save time by using them, and time is after all a very good motivator.
    C'mon, Alan.....you know sandstone grinders have been around a whole lot longer than steel files.

    Personally, I think the internet these days is chock full of "tool experts" who couldn't get jobs as basic form carpenters, doing outright harm spreading ignorance and snobbery. While I agree there aren't many bright lines in between, newcomers don't go wrong focusing on completing woodworking projects rather than completing their tool collection.
    Last edited by Bob Smalser; 07-24-2006 at 8:22 AM.
    “Perhaps then, you will say, ‘But where can one have a boat like that built today?’ And I will tell you that there are still some honest men who can sharpen a saw, plane, or adze...men (who) live and work in out of the way places, but that is lucky, for they can acquire materials for one third of city prices. Best, some of these gentlemen’s boatshops are in places where nothing but the occasional honk of a wild goose will distract them from their work.” -- L Francis Herreshoff

  15. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Smalser
    C'mon, Alan.....you know sandstone grinders have been around a whole lot longer than steel files.
    Oh, do you have one? Would you use it if you chipped a chisel? A file would work, and certainly if someone had a hand grinder it would work, the majority don't.
    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Smalser
    Personally, I think the internet these days is chock full of "tool experts" who couldn't get jobs as basic form carpenters, doing outright harm spreading ignorance and snobbery. While I agree there aren't many bright lines in between, newcomers don't go wrong focusing on completing woodworking projects rather than completing their tool collection.
    Sure, this has always bothered you. But the world is comprised of a lot of different people. It shouldn't bother you what folks spend their time on. Some folks get excited about tools, some actually buy them for resale (not me, I admit), and others want a complete collection of LN planes.

    Do you believe that all folks would desire a job in basic carpentry? I certainly don't, and more so feel that this is yet a great example of how different minds think. I've worked basic carpentry jobs in the past, as I have plumbing...but things like crawling under 75 year old houses to hacksaw off the tops of rusted out cast iron drainage pipes is not something I would wish on anyone, or knocking out showers to fix the framing in the wall where water has damaged it, laying subfloors in bathrooms, etc...yet this is the type of basic carpenty work that someone would get tossed...

    Seems someone around here bought about 200 old chisels on ebay to put together a set of users. Does this make it wrong for you? Or do you speak from experience of wasting time doing so rather than spending it on projects in themself?
    --
    Life is about what your doing today, not what you did yesterday! Seize the day before it sneaks up and seizes you!

    Alan - http://www.traditionaltoolworks.com:8080/roller/aland/

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