Page 1 of 4 1234 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 50

Thread: "high dollar tools..."

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Hubbards, Nova Scotia, Canada
    Posts
    147

    "high dollar tools..."

    Hi All

    I kinda muddied the waters in the Saw Bench thread with some of my comments. What I should have done was to simply applaud Harry for his efforts and be done with it. Instead I took a swipe at very expensive tools - and by extension, those who use or covet them.

    I would like to apologise if I offended anyone.

    The great thing about Harry's initiative is that he is serving to remind us that you can get a lot of useful stuff done with simple tools. I think it's obvious from the number of responses he's got that there's a lot of interest in his approach. I don't particularly need any sawhorses (benches, trestles -depending where you're from) but I'm thinking of building some just for the fun of it.

    As a newcomber to these forums, I'm struck by the amount of "ink" that is dedicated to tool talk. Maybe I'm the one with the problem - I'm prepared to accept that . Harry's straight ahead "use the tools you got" approach is a refreshing break from the "LN LV BU LA" lingo - at least to me it is.

    I'm old enough to remember when there was no LV or LN or GW. That doesn't mean that I don't embrace them and the improvements they have made in the selection of what's available out there (I own a Paragon smoother by LV and a LV low angle blockplane, neither of which get used much). But people got things done with hardware store tools.

    Crappy tools or poorly tuned tools are a detriment to doing good work - no doubt about it. All the woodworking books I've read always recommended buying the best tools you can afford and I guess that still holds true. The best tools today, though, are so esoteric and highly refined that I think they are better than most of the people who buy them really need.(Myself included)

    I think it's important for people to know that they can get by with less than the latest and greatest. You might need to tune it or tweak it a bit, but those are important skills too. If you want to do the highest quality work, you will want the best. If you want to bevel the sides of a sawbench, do as Harry does - pick up the nearest sharp plane and get at it!

    End of rant. Please forgive the long post.

    IG

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Menlo Park, CA
    Posts
    281
    Let's not forget that the tools once available in the local hardware store are now the vintage Stanleys (et al) that many people covet, and that those tools cost then more than a new Lie-Nielsen does now (relative to average wages for a week).

    I don't disagree with your assertion that "they can get by with less than the latest and greatest."

    However, if you don't have a lot of time for woodworking and are finding an annoyingly large percentage of your time is spent fiddling with your tools (vs. not fiddling with a newer and/or more expensive tool), you may find (as I did) that the pricier tool is a better value for you.

    I suppose now's the time to point out that the plane I reached for FIRST in my recent planing-a-teak-leg experience was a vintage 2001-era Record #4. I bought it from Lee Valley for the whopping price of $52.50. It's required little tuning to make it useable (under most circumstances, but this wood was really out of its league). Since I was taking lumber from rough to finished, it's arguable that I should have reached for a Jack first anyway (especially since I happened to have one). That's what I pulled out to finish the task.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Brentwood & Altamont, TN
    Posts
    2,334
    A very interesting take on this forum. My personal observation is that this forum tends to focus more on what I call "tool porn" than woodworking. More often than not you see posts of folks showing each other their hand tools and very few posts of the products of those tools. The most expensive plane I own is a LV rabet plane and of my "regular" planes a Groz #4 that I shapened with the tormek and it is great. I also own a couple of 50+ yo Stanleys (# 5 Baily and 2 block planes; low and reg angles). But, they are all heavy "users," I have no "decorator tools."

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Montreal , Canada
    Posts
    759
    Hi Ian,

    I think that one of the reasons there is so much talk of high end tools is the category of users of these tools. Most of the people (myself included) on WWing forums are hobbyists. Being a hobby, spending money on and talking about our tools is part of the fun. Before LV and LN started making their planes, what was available as new was mediocre at best. The large makers were more interested in the bottom line than the quality of tool they produced and small cottage makers were virtually unknown.

    Over the last 20 years or so WWing has taken off as a hobby and people were looking for better quality tools. Along came the new breed of maker. The choice, quality and variety of tools went on an upswing again. We post about what we want, what we need and what should we buy. I doubt it's any different now than it was 80 years ago on a job site where the new tool got appraised, fondled and judged by everyone there. It's just on a grander scale now because instead of maybe 10 guys sitting around the lunch pail, there are 10,000 guys gathering around the internet.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    extreme southeast Nebraska
    Posts
    3,113
    I must apologize about my rant too. Some of my old tools did cost a small fortune in there day too, and some of the ones I have found to work with were real bargains for what I paid for them, and I have since found out what they are really worth.

    I choose to use old and older tools in an attempt to educate the public at living history and steam shows etc. of what tools and methods our forefathers used in there time period to fashion some of the things they did.

    I also choose to use them mainly when not out before the public so that I can become proficient in their use. I do have a few tailed tools that I occasionally use when time is in short supply, such as planing to thickness and edge planing.

    I am by no means what you would call a perfectionist, I don't make high dollar or fancy things, just simple usable functional things from what is at hand.

    Usually I try to put myself in the frame of mind of a Wood Worker in the time period I am trying to depict with the tools of yesterday he had to work with. It gets difficult at times when I know there's a tailed router, bandsaw and tablesaw handy. When I do use them, I do so with the knowledge that foot powered ones were available in the time period I am trying to represent, but were expensive and not widely used.

    I do woodworking the old fashioned way as a hobby and enjoy it immensly even tho it is time consuming and sometimes frustrating. But, the time invested in learning the proper use of the old tools has been rewarding and worth the effort.

    I have nothing against the more modern tools as they are definitely of a better quality sometimes than the older ones. I just can't afford them and they do not fit well in my type of sometimes crude woodworking.

    And lastly I wish I had smaller feet. Size 14's are a mouthful when you get foot in mouth disease occasionally.
    Jr.
    Hand tools are very modern- they are all cordless
    NORMAL is just a setting on the washing machine.
    Be who you are and say what you feel... because those that matter... don't mind...and those that mind...don't matter!
    By Hammer and Hand All Arts Do Stand

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Menlo Park, CA
    Posts
    281
    Harry, no worries.

    I guess it comes down to whether or not you like used cars, which is a great analogy.

    Personally, having owned more used cars than new ones, used cars (even of a given year and mileage) are a highly variable lot, much more so than a new car of a similar type.

    I don't have any big powered tools because I live in a terribly expensive area [1] and I'd have to have another million dollars to my name (really) to have a shop that could house them. There's no power in my shop area either (and I'd desperately love a light, btw.)

    Given that, the price of Lie-Nielsen planes doesn't seem so bad.

    [1] Three of the top ten cities in the US for median household income and median home price adjoin my town (Hillsborough, Atherton, Woodside). My town is 24th in housing price for the US. (all data for cities with 5000+ population as of 2000 census)

  7. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by harry strasil

    And lastly I wish I had smaller feet. Size 14's are a mouthful when you get foot in mouth disease occasionally.
    jr, this is a clasic! one that fits me to a "t" .
    ian, i prefer the old tools myself for a couple reasons; 1] they`ll most likely never depreiciate. and 2] like jr.(harry) using them gives me a sense of nostilgia. also i find, especially with chisels, that many of the older ones are more aesthetically pleasing for me to just look at. as far as the steel used i can`t really tell much difference between my turn of the century buck brothers chisels and my newer two cherries? both hold an edge well and sharpen fairly quickly....i save the antiques for projects i do for family-n-friends and use the new tools to make production. reason being i`m not nearly as concerned about abusing something that`s easily replaced....
    chris, isn`t part of the joy of woodworking whether as a hobby or for a living the aquisition,and associated bragging rights, of tools the owner finds pleasing to work with? tool porn- i suppose so? for me anyway tool porn is infills and damascus steel........02 tod
    TO WHOM IT MAY CONCERN; I ACCEPT FULL LEGAL RESPONSIBILITY FOR MY POSTS ON THIS FORUM, ALL POSTS ARE MADE IN GOOD FAITH CONTAINING FACTUAL INFORMATION AS I KNOW IT.

  8. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by harry strasil
    I do woodworking the old fashioned way as a hobby and enjoy it immensly even tho it is time consuming and sometimes frustrating. But, the time invested in learning the proper use of the old tools has been rewarding and worth the effort.
    I'm curious what the old fashioned way is? There's machinery that was built back at the turn of the last century that ran off flat belts and steam engines. I would call that old fashioned.

    I'd like to toss out an example. I don't own a lot of planes, and most of the planes that I do own are specialty planes. Of the common planes I only own a few. I do own a Stanley 60 1/2, Stanley 4C Type 11, Stanley No 8 Type 11. I could and do use these as my user planes. They work fine, and having them work well is more a matter of proper sharpening.

    Let's say I bought a LN plane to replace my 4C, because I felt it was a better plane? It wouldn't help me be a better woodworker, but it would be a great plane and nobody would feel bad to own such a tool, IMO.
    Quote Originally Posted by harry strasil
    I have nothing against the more modern tools as they are definitely of a better quality sometimes than the older ones. I just can't afford them and they do not fit well in my type of sometimes crude woodworking.
    I have a hard time believing that anyone, yourself included couldn't afford to buy a LN plane, if you wanted one. The fact is that you don't need one as you have other planes that will do, even tools you might have made yourself. If you can afford to buy gas for your car/truck, you can afford to buy a new plane if you wanted.

    Buying a new LN plane because you can't sharpen your Stanley is a poor reason for doing so, and will provide the person with the same difficulty if not more, due to the hardness of the blade.

    However, stereotyping folks into a nice painted corner doesn't work so well, IMO. There's folks that only own LN planes and produce wonderful work. There are many folks that own fancy european sliding table saws and other fancy power tools that produce great work. There are folks that don't own any power tools and produce wonderful work. It is all a means to an end. Wether a person aligns with or works in the same fashion as either of these types is purely up to them to decide.

    Life is too short to let someone else's ways sour your grapes (not directed at anyone specific). Enjoy it, and do what floats your boat.

    I used a new handcrafted joinery saw as an example in the other thread. I had Mike Wenzloff make me 2 small saws. I didn't need them, yet I really do like them and find them to be great tools that will last my lifetime. One can say, "Oh, I wouldn't need a new saw...there's plenty of old ones...", and they would be right. Many with loose handles, duller than butter, broken teeth, rusty blades, frozen saw nuts, poorly seated backs, or even pitting.

    So, this is nothing that a mill file, saw vise, saw file, and other minor tools couldn't take care of, but some people don't want to spend the time to do this. I will say that I have taught myself how to do this, and in some cases I have done so rather than working on a project that week, but felt it was a skill I wanted to have. For many folks it would be easier to go buy a new saw, one that is ready to use, so that they can at least have a great tool to use and it shouldn't bother anyone if folks decide to do so.

    Maybe someone wants to buy a complete set of Ashley Iles chisels because they don't want to spend a month or two buying old vintage chisels to put together a user set. But maybe they don't want to do that, and no, I don't own a complete set of Ashley Iles chisels, but do have some newer Japanese chisels. I mostly use my old vintage chisels. I certainly could understand someone buying a set of Ashley Isles, or LN chisels, or Japanese chisels, or other new chisels...believe it or not, some folks will buy a set of new Irwin Marples as they can't afford used vintage Stanley chisels which are now going through the roof price wise.
    --
    Life is about what your doing today, not what you did yesterday! Seize the day before it sneaks up and seizes you!

    Alan - http://www.traditionaltoolworks.com:8080/roller/aland/

  9. #9
    geeze allen you`re on a roll.......why do you feel the need to chastise jr. for liking to use handtools? same for bob? most of our forefathers didn`t own steam or waterpowered equipment and if they wanted to build something whether a barn or secratary they where left using tools they could build or buy and undoubtedly these where human powered. personally i think it`s wonderfull that both these fellows take the time to share their knowledge with the rest of us.
    using, let alone tuning or making handtools is becomming a lost art. folks like jr. and bob are whom i consider the wise ones that folks like me should listen to and learn from.
    i`d like to thank both these fellows for taking the time to share their knowledge and personalities with the rest of us.....02 tod
    TO WHOM IT MAY CONCERN; I ACCEPT FULL LEGAL RESPONSIBILITY FOR MY POSTS ON THIS FORUM, ALL POSTS ARE MADE IN GOOD FAITH CONTAINING FACTUAL INFORMATION AS I KNOW IT.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    extreme southeast Nebraska
    Posts
    3,113
    Well, here we go again, I am gonna chew on the other shoe this time, I already got the toe chewed off the right shoe, might as well have a matched pair.

    I guess I opened another can of worms again with an inappropriate post. Last time it was because I was not enough of a Neander when I post a picture of an antique power tool which I consider to be an evolution of a neander tool. This time its because I am too much of a Neander it seems.

    LOL, all this Discussion,for lack of a better term, could be put to better use making chips and sawdust by hand or by power, whichever we have to do the job we want to do. We not gonna change our methods, so why (Discuss) it in such depth.

    This is my final post on the subject, That's my story, and I am sticking to it.



    We could always discuss Global Warming. LOL

    Last edited by harry strasil; 07-24-2006 at 11:33 AM.
    Jr.
    Hand tools are very modern- they are all cordless
    NORMAL is just a setting on the washing machine.
    Be who you are and say what you feel... because those that matter... don't mind...and those that mind...don't matter!
    By Hammer and Hand All Arts Do Stand

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Modesto, CA
    Posts
    2,364
    Harry, where'd you get a picture of my clothesline? OH....I'm so embarrassed.
    Mark Rios

    Anything worth taking seriously is worth making fun of.

    "All roads lead to a terrestrial planet finder telescope"

    We arrive at this moment...by the unswerving punctuality...of chance.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    Columbia, SC
    Posts
    702

    Tool Posts and My Two Cents

    Ian,

    I'm strictly an amateur woodworker - have been for 50+ years. I've never had the benefit of a mentor; most of what I know I picked up from reading and from trial and error - mostly error. I didn't become part of a woodworking community until I discovered Sawmill Creek and several other forums I visit regularly. I have learned more here in the last 3 years than I learned in all my prior woodworking experience. A big part of what I have learned has been about tools.

    I don't know if more digital ink is spent here on tools than on woodworking techniques and projects, but it does seem that tools get a large part of the attention. For me that has been a good thing. I like tools and I have enjoyed learining about them and how they work. The tool posts here and elswhere sparked in me something of a tool-buying binge that has lasted several years. I must admit, however that recently I have returned to a more rational state of mind. My lust for tools has cooled (age has cooled most of my passions). I no longer crave the newest LN wonder plane or scour the internet for the perfect 3/4" beveled edge Witherby chisel or the pristine 75 year-old Disston #12. I have enough tools in my shop to build just about anything I want to build. My interests have returned to the creative aspect of woodworking; I'm much more intrigued by posts about projects and techniques these days.

    Nevertheless, internet tool porn and the endless posts about tools here and elsewhere fed an important phase of my woodworking career (if you can call it a "career"). Had I not had the benefit of the many, many wonderful and educational posts on the subject of tools and their use, I would still be completely dependent on my router and table saw, and my one and only hand plane would still be sitting on the shelf, gathering dust and capable only of gouging great chunks from whatever unfortunate piece of timber I turned it to. Instead, today I have a fairly complete woodworking shop with more tools that I will ever need. But I enjoy them. They are sharp, they work as they should, the hand tools are capable of much more that I ever imagined and, I am a much more confident woodworker than I was before I took this journey. As much as one may decry the fascination and perhaps obsession with tools that permeates this and other woodworking forums, I have enjoyed and benefitted from it and I certainly hope and imagine others have and will too.

    My $.02

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Jul 2006
    Location
    Hubbards, Nova Scotia, Canada
    Posts
    147
    Hi

    Lots of interesting discussion on this topic. It certainly underlines the fact that we come to woodworking for a whole range of reasons. We are all conditoned by our life experiences and we can obviously draw pleasure from different aspects of woodworking.

    It's silly of me to criticise others' preferences. I have enough peculiarities of my own to work on. In fact, I'd like everybody to go out and buy an armload of LN planes right now... then the prices might drop, see, and then I might be able to justify buying some of those bronze beauties for myself

    Now, it looks like the rain has let up so I'm off to buy some lumber and I'm gonna make me some sawbenches

    Cheers
    IG

  14. New Tools - old Tools

    Another valid point is that in some parts of the world (e.g. Germany) it is very difficult to find old metal planes. OK you can find old wooden ones but what is if you enjoy metal ones?

    Buying via EBAY is one possibility but you really never know what you get and perhaps you have to buy a replacement blade and suddenly you arrive very close to the amount of a new LN which work very fine out of the box.

    Mine are all users and of course they look very nice and I enjoy working with them. But I am still a little envy for the guys who could go to a barn sales and look for some good old Stanleys which they could take back to life.
    By the way I have bought some old Disstons, Stanley #45 and Stanley router and they work fine. But I still like my new LN´s.

    I guess there are many ways to Rome....
    Bernhard

  15. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by tod evans
    geeze allen you`re on a roll.......why do you feel the need to chastise jr. for liking to use handtools? same for bob? most of our forefathers didn`t own steam or waterpowered equipment and if they wanted to build something whether a barn or secratary they where left using tools they could build or buy and undoubtedly these where human powered. personally i think it`s wonderfull that both these fellows take the time to share their knowledge with the rest of us.
    using, let alone tuning or making handtools is becomming a lost art. folks like jr. and bob are whom i consider the wise ones that folks like me should listen to and learn from.
    i`d like to thank both these fellows for taking the time to share their knowledge and personalities with the rest of us.....02 tod
    No, not chastising at all, in fact, why should they feel that folks who buy modern tools that they consider to be expensive to be bad? Why would it bother them that someone bought an LN plane instead of using an old Stanley?

    I was more curious with my question about what "old fashioned" meant.

    Let's leave power vs. hand out of it, my point was that even if someone was to use a powered grinder, you can place the same onus on them.

    I just don't see how using modern hand tools (joinery saw as a case, LN plane as another, new chisels, whatever) to be bad when one is using them to work wood, period.

    I can't make that any clearer for you Todd.
    --
    Life is about what your doing today, not what you did yesterday! Seize the day before it sneaks up and seizes you!

    Alan - http://www.traditionaltoolworks.com:8080/roller/aland/

Similar Threads

  1. Neander Interview: Dave Anderson
    By Zahid Naqvi in forum Neanderthal Haven
    Replies: 16
    Last Post: 03-04-2006, 11:15 PM
  2. the best tools or good enough?
    By Zahid Naqvi in forum General Woodworking and Power Tools
    Replies: 53
    Last Post: 06-16-2005, 5:01 PM
  3. Loading/Unloading Tools.
    By Richard Gillespie in forum General Woodworking and Power Tools
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 02-21-2005, 9:19 AM
  4. Lowes 20% Off Sale on Tools
    By Tom LaRussa in forum General Woodworking and Power Tools
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 12-16-2004, 5:47 PM
  5. Power tools in Europe (long)
    By Christian Aufreiter in forum General Woodworking and Power Tools
    Replies: 9
    Last Post: 10-12-2003, 6:19 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •