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Thread: New Clearvue DC webpage finally up

  1. #1
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    New Clearvue DC webpage finally up

    Just thought I'd post an update. I've been watching ClearVue's site to see the new system I brought up on this thread
    http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=40304

    CV finally has this on their site for anyone that wanted a look-see
    http://www.clearvuecyclones.com/Order_Page.htm
    It looks like they've decided to name this one Mini Max CV1400
    Hope nobody gets this confused with a new machine from a Texas importer of Italian machinery.
    Use the fence Luke

  2. #2
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    Thanks, Doug. I happy to see Ed is coming out with a few more items to help those with specific needs. Jim.
    Coolmeadow Setters...Exclusively Irish! When Irish Eyes are smiling....They're usually up to something!!
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  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Shepard
    It looks like they've decided to name this one Mini Max CV1400
    Hope nobody gets this confused with a new machine from a Texas importer of Italian machinery.
    Ones with that name will be a collector's item after said importer's lawyers find out. Why would they risk that?

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Meiser
    Ones with that name will be a collector's item after said importer's lawyers find out. Why would they risk that?
    I found the name a bit curious too. I'm guessing they haven't realized yet that there's a conflict. Though I'm sure they've heard of Mini Max, I willing to bet it just slipped their mind. It's only a small family run business (no legal staff) and I don't get the sense from talking to them that they'd intentionally try pulling anything below the belt. My system will actually be Serial #1 which might have had some collectors value - except they dont have any serial nbrs on them. I'm not even sure their systems have labels with model nbrs on them either, so collectors value is probably nil.
    Use the fence Luke

  5. #5
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    Glad their prices didn't go up anymore than they did. I have plans to install one but I have to admit that spending a grand for DC is tough. Then half that again for duct work. Even though with my allergies it's cheaper than the Doctor visits.

    I need to get this on order but I would rather be woodworking than installing woodworking machinery.

  6. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Meiser
    Ones with that name will be a collector's item after said importer's lawyers find out. Why would they risk that?
    matt, i seriously doubt that jim strain is going to have any issues with ed calling one of his dust collectors a minimax cv1400? jim`s a pretty down to earth guy who i think has better things to do than chasing after a dust collector manufacturer......02 tod


    [edit] heck with a name like that paul cresti might just buy one.....
    Last edited by tod evans; 08-02-2006 at 6:51 AM.
    TO WHOM IT MAY CONCERN; I ACCEPT FULL LEGAL RESPONSIBILITY FOR MY POSTS ON THIS FORUM, ALL POSTS ARE MADE IN GOOD FAITH CONTAINING FACTUAL INFORMATION AS I KNOW IT.

  7. #7
    Quick question on the CV or any DC for that matter. I currently use a JDS 1.5HP that I roll from machine to machine. My planer clogs it and I eat a lot of dust when ripping ply so I am assuming it's not enough. A friend has the big CV and that think will suck your arm off so I am leaning in that direction.

    My question is regarding the ratings. I know there is always some marketing adders on the numbers but JDS rates my 1.5HP Dust Force at 1250CFM which is about the same as the CV. Is the difference in rating related to pipe length at all? So after 10' of flex is my JDS much less where the CV is not? Just curios, not very familiar with the art of air flow.

    The other thing is how loud is the CV? My friend has his in a plywood "shed" with sound insulation on the inside. I don't have that kind of space and will end up mounting if up off the floor with a long drop hose for the can.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Gumpper
    My question is regarding the ratings. I know there is always some marketing adders on the numbers but JDS rates my 1.5HP Dust Force at 1250CFM which is about the same as the CV. Is the difference in rating related to pipe length at all?
    From what I gather there is a lot of factors that can be monkeyed with. How much pipe, what size pipe, where and how you measure cfm. I don't think any two manufactors measure them the same. Bill Pentz measurements are the only ones I really trust as accurate and consistent. I imagine that most manufactors numbers are accurate, just they sometimes measure it where or with a method that makes them look good.

    As for pipe, yes is make a big difference. Flex pipe is rough inside and that disrupts the airflow. Elbows disrupt the air flow. Smooth and straight is best but of course it's not usually possible to run it that way.

  9. #9
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    The Bill Pentz site probably has the most complete info I've seen about the ratings and testing.
    http://billpentz.com/woodworking/cyc...easurement.cfm

    There is a bit of a Reader's Digest version on Clearvue's site
    http://www.clearvuecyclones.com/Beginners_Corner.htm
    Use the fence Luke

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian Gumpper
    The other thing is how loud is the CV? My friend has his in a plywood "shed" with sound insulation on the inside. I don't have that kind of space and will end up mounting if up off the floor with a long drop hose for the can.
    I am finishing up running ducting for my Clearvue, and while I do not have decibel measurements, it's loud to the point that I'll not work in there without hearing protection. On Ed's site in the forums, some guy did do decibel measurements, and numberwise the cyclone running is about the equivalent of a planer planing wood, in the low nineties, maybe? The quality of the DC sound is different, though, because of the lower pitch.

    I built a wood framework to mount mine on to keep it off of the wall (which supports our bedroom upstairs) and will eventually enclose it with some sort of soundproofing. The footprint is pretty small and you might consider going this route. It would'nt be a shed per se, but I believe that it will help with the noise.

  11. #11

    New Clear Vue Mini CV-1400 Cyclone

    Although I definitely have a biased opinion in favor of Clear Vue because they pay me a small royalty on each cyclone they make from my designs, I do want to share that this new Mini CV1400 cyclone built by Ed Morgano is pretty exciting and will probably change small shop dust collection in a very good way.

    In 1999 my own shop with its “best” rated cyclone, ducting and fine filter landed me in the hospital. My new respiratory doctor took away my woodworking until I got my shop cleaned up. As an engineer I knew I would not be happy until I measured the problem, so had medical air quality tests run on my shop and home. My inspector was the senior government inspector for OSHA testing in California, thanks to my having worked as a prior director and senior engineer over another air quality program for the State of California. That inspector spent a whole day educating me.

    He told me and I later verified by testing at the university where I have long taught that my cyclone put close to 100% of the airborne 30-micon and smaller dust particles into the filter. That dust is full of silica (glass) that quickly cuts and tears its way even through the finest filter. He said I needed a pressure gauge on my system to show when it was time to change filters, because the high dust load from my cyclone had quickly destroyed my filter and the dust was so fine my shop looked great. His particle counter showed over 13,000 times higher for my shop than considered medically safe with more than double the maximum allowed average dust load for a commercial shop. He explained this particle count was really bad news as my shop tested clean before turning on my cyclone then failed its test before doing any woodworking. Almost all that dust was at least three months old stuff stirred up when we turned on my cyclones because I had not done any woodworking for the three months spent recovering.

    He said the only safe way to use any existing hobbyist cyclone in his opinion was to trade out to a 5 hp blower that would really move enough air to capture the fine dust as it was made and then blow that air from the cyclone directly outside. He shared that I could get off the Internet CFM requirement tables for almost every type and size stationary tool. Air engineers did considerable testing and have spent over a decade refining how much airflow we need to provide good fine dust collection at our tools. He said even having ample airflow was not enough because I also needed to upgrade my hoods, change all my ducting and change the tool ports. Normal “chip collection” hoods do not amply contain and control the fine dust so it can escape before capture. Likewise, air at typical dust collection pressures is like water and will barely compress at all. That means my smaller ports and duct acted just like a mostly closed water valve and killed my airflow. I needed to use at least all 6” ducting. The single port machines needed 6” ports and the two port machines needed 5” for the larger and 3.5” or 4” for the smaller port.

    I went through a lot of work learning the math, physics and engineering to try and make my 1999 “best” cyclone generate less hp killing resistance and provide better fine dust separation. Use of the neutral vane setup worked out by my friend and fellow engineer Jim Halbert saved almost a third on horsepower but the separation was still dismal. I spent nearly a year designing, building and testing, but nothing I could do would make that traditional cyclone design more than about 40% efficient at separating off the 30-micron and smaller airborne dust particles. Although I shared out my changes on my Cyclone Modifications web pages and almost every vendor today now sells their cyclones with my suggested changes, I finally realized that to get good enough fine dust separation to avoid constantly killing filters I was going to have to start from scratch with a whole new design.

    I did just that and came up with the ideal woodworking cyclone at 13.5” in diameter with a whole different type of angled inlet that used both a neutral vane and circular air ramp. Unfortunately, it needed a monster 5 hp motor and 16” diameter impeller to turn the air in this tight of a separation spiral. Back in 1999 when I did this work a 1.5 hp motor was considered huge as was a 12” diameter impeller. I finally built a compromise cyclone that was larger so could use a smaller motor. It worked incredibly well as many have learned from building one from my plans or buying one from Ed Morgano with Clear Vue, the only firm that makes my design.

    So when Ed Morgano with Clear Vue Cyclones last year asked me to help with a cyclone that would fit under a low ceiling, I realized that my original design that worked best during testing would be an ideal unit for him to make and sell. I talked Ed into including in the blower modifications enough pressure so that this system can actually move the air needed for good fine dust collection through even the smaller 4” ducting and ports that we mostly find readily available. It will work far better with all 6” ducting and ports but even with 4” it does a pretty incredible job. We had to go through some more blower redesign to get all working just right without putting the motor at risk of pulling too many amps, but this unit is now in production. It works incredibly well both in terms of efficiency and total separation. Good work Ed!

    Bill Pentz

  12. #12
    Bill are you saying all filters will get torn up and cause problems? I know its best to vent outside but some can't do that. I am just asking from this sentence you posted above. Or as long as you keep your filter clean you are good.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bill Pentz
    "That dust is full of silica (glass) that quickly cuts and tears its way even through the finest filter. He said I needed a pressure gauge on my system to show when it was time to change filters, because the high dust load from my cyclone had quickly destroyed my filter and the dust was so fine my shop looked great."

  13. #13

    Filter Concerns

    Quote Originally Posted by Aaron Beaver
    Bill are you saying all filters will get torn up and cause problems? I know its best to vent outside but some can't do that. I am just asking from this sentence you posted above. Or as long as you keep your filter clean you are good.
    Aaron,

    You have it exactly right. Our fine filters have a limited life that depends upon dust loading, type of wood, how often you clean your filters, filter surface area, and pressure in your system.

    Filters are a tough catch-22 situation, meaning you can't win for losing and are always going to need to eventually replace filters. If you clean too little the pressure goes up killing the airflow we need for good fine dust collection while pushing the fine filter destroying dust right through the filter pores. If you clean too much you wear out your filters from the cleaning.

    In commercial systems they track the system pressure after every cleaning. The dust builds up in the fine filter strands a cake that does not get removed with normal shaking or pulse air cleaning, the pressure goes up. It takes about 9 cleaning cycles for a new filter to build its permanent dust cake, highest "clean" pressure, and achieve its best level of filtering because that blockage improves filtering. During that "seasoning" process our filters are sieves that pass most of the finest unhealthiest dust until about four filter cleanings. This is not a problem in most commercial dust collection systems because getting them certified for indoor use is so expensive most are just put outside where the fine dust just blows away. Somewhere around 20 cleaning cycles the pressure begins to fall meaning our filters are getting worn. When the pressure falls enough most end up either having to wash their all poly felt filters or replace their poly-paper blended filters. With the all poly able to live through about 4-5 machine washings, their double the initial cost ends up costing about half as much as the blended filters most use.

    For commercial dust collection systems that vent inside into facilities that must pass regular government air quality tests, the vendors use filters tested and certified according to ASHRAE standards when new, not after building up this dust cake. A well seasoned filter will filter 20 to 30 times better than a brand new filter. Unfortunately with no oversight on our vendors and the testing being very expensive, most hobbyist filters are advertised with their outdoor fully “seasoned” filtering levels. This means most pass the finest unhealthiest dust most of the time when used indoors. Between moving too little air to capture the fine dust as it is made, hoods that do not control and contain this fine dust, and these open filters, most small shops build up dangerously high levels of fine dust unless they regularly get blown out thoroughly.

    bill
    Last edited by Bill Pentz; 08-02-2006 at 5:47 PM.

  14. #14
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    Bill
    Thanks for chiming in on this thread. I essentially bought this new system sight unseen and decided to be the guinea pig. Online pics weren't even available until 3 days after I bought. I was pretty confident dealing with Ed that I was getting good advice but it sure is nice to hear a ringing endorsement from the Grand Poobah of the DC Lodge.
    Use the fence Luke

  15. #15
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    How large of a pipe needs to go outside, and does the filter sit outside also?

    How much can I expect to pay?

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