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Thread: Do you thin Deft Lacquer when spraying?

  1. #1

    Do you thin Deft Lacquer when spraying?

    This will be a first for me. Spraying some bookcases. Plan on using Deft Lacquer. Do you thin it? Will not be using HVLP. Just reg compressor and spray gun. Also what pressure to run it at?

    Thanks,
    Rick

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Conway, Arkansas
    Posts
    13,181
    Hey Rick.....Yes I do...about 20% does the trick for me, but then it will depend on the spray gun and nozzle size you have. But, that should work fine. Just remember to spray lite coats to prevent any runs. DAMHIKT!!!!!
    Thanks & Happy Wood Chips,
    Dennis -
    Get the Benefits of Being an SMC Contributor..!
    ....DEBT is nothing more than yesterday's spending taken from tomorrow's income.

  3. #3
    Thanks Dennis. It took all day to stain them so I figured if I'm ever going to get them finished this year I would need to spray them. I will let you know how it goes.

    Rick

  4. #4
    Like Dennis said, it depends on your spray gun, but I often use 40% or more thinner. When it is that thin, I find I get a very nice coat, but since so much of it evaporates, you need more coats. Of course, with a dry time in minutes, more coats isn't a problem. The air pressure depends on the gun. If you haven't sprayed before, practice with water on cardboard boxes or brick walls, so you can see the pattern you are applying.

    A bookcase is fairly hard to spray. I leave the back off until after the finishing is done, to make it easier.

    You should seriously consider an HVLP setup. Probably twice as much material will make it to the work, cutting the cost of lacquer and thinner in half. I consider the Porter Cable conversion gun "very good" and it costs under $100.

    If I remember my research from a couple years ago, Deft has a retarder to make it dry slower so it can be brushed. That retarder will just make spraying harder, not easier. You would do just as well, if not better, with a cheaper lacquer (I used Sherwin Williams until I recently switched to water-based Target Coatings)

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Charlie Plesums
    Like Dennis said, it depends on your spray gun, but I often use 40% or more thinner. When it is that thin, I find I get a very nice coat, but since so much of it evaporates, you need more coats. Of course, with a dry time in minutes, more coats isn't a problem. The air pressure depends on the gun. If you haven't sprayed before, practice with water on cardboard boxes or brick walls, so you can see the pattern you are applying.

    A bookcase is fairly hard to spray. I leave the back off until after the finishing is done, to make it easier.

    You should seriously consider an HVLP setup. Probably twice as much material will make it to the work, cutting the cost of lacquer and thinner in half. I consider the Porter Cable conversion gun "very good" and it costs under $100.

    If I remember my research from a couple years ago, Deft has a retarder to make it dry slower so it can be brushed. That retarder will just make spraying harder, not easier. You would do just as well, if not better, with a cheaper lacquer (I used Sherwin Williams until I recently switched to water-based Target Coatings)
    Does a conversion gun just hookup to a regular compressor to make it an HVLP setup? Yes, the backs will be off when spraying. Which Sherman Williams product do you use?

    Thanks,
    Rick

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    New Springfield Ohio
    Posts
    717
    I used to spray Deft, then I discovered

    M.L. Campbell Lacquers

    I've been using the Magnalac and the high build. Since they where designed with spraying in mind they perform better than deft wich was designed as a brushing lacquer.

    And they aren't any more expensive, in fact at hartville they are cheaper than the deft


  7. #7
    I agree with Dennis in the 20% range. I would invest in a decent HVLP gun. You can get the DeVilbiss Finishline gun for around $125. I use one and love it. If you use any lacquer make sure you have really good ventilation. Good Luck, Bill

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Collinsville, OK
    Posts
    159
    Like Dennis says, 20% has worked for me with a old Binks ( at about 18 psi). An HVLP would be best , just stay away from the ~$20 gun from HF ( or Homier, Big Lots..etc).

    Jeff

  9. #9
    I disagree with anyone who specifies the amount that you should thin your lacquer... it depends on the temperature, the gun, the nozzle on the gun, the air pressure, the operator, and all the other factors. Using the Sherwin Williams lacquer, which is fairly thick (that is good - it has more "solids" per gallon), I add about 40% thinner with my HVLP conversion gun, but add little or no thinner with my (cheap) turbine HVLP gun. I thin a little more when the temperature is lower and the lacquer doesn't flow as fast. Same lacquer, same operator, different guns, different operating temperature.

    Yes, a conversion HVLP gun runs on an ordinary air compressor. I leave my compressor set at about 100 pounds. The gun has a pressure reducer at the gun, which I normally kept at about 20 pounds but recently have been trying about 25 pounds. The restrictions to airflow within the gun cut the 20 pounds to about 10 pounds at the tip (I am told). As the pressure is dropped the air expands, which helps some with the "High Volume" part of HVLP. I have a compressor with a label that says 5 hp, but since it runs on a standard 120 volt circuit, I know it can't be more than 1 1/2 real hp. The 13 gallon tank allows me to draw more air than the compressor puts out... for short periods of time, as long as I stop regularly (at the end of each stroke, and to move around) giving the compressor a chance to catch up. With my technique and the Porter Cable gun, that compressor can keep up with me... most of the time. If I notice the air pressure dropping, I just rest a minute, then keep going.

    I use gloss lacquer for everything. Sand the lacquer with 320 grit to make up for any imperfect spraying, until it is perfectly smooth (the gloss will be gone). Then sand with 600 grit for a beautiful satin finish. Sand with 800 grit and hand rub with a towel for a semigloss. The semigloss and satin lacquers have a silica powder (like fine sand or ground glass) in them to dull the finish, but they then don't "rub out" as well (Jeff Jewitt says not at all).

    If you use ordinary Nitrocellulose lacquer, it is extremely flammable. I only spray outdoors. The humidity needs to be low enough that you can see blue sky. The overspray dries before it hits the ground. I stay at least 3 feet away from the cars, just to be safe (but only 3 feet away). I use a respirator when I am spraying in confined spaces (insides of cabinets) where the air blows overspray back at me, but don't bother when I do the outsides of cabinets. (Dont try this at home...always wear a respirator rated for organic solvents)

    Gloss Lacquer is like paint thinner... so basic you don't look for special types, unless someone doctors it (like Deft puts a retarder in it so it dries more slowly and can be brushed). One time I asked the clerk at Sherwin Williams for 5 gallons of Gloss Nitrocellulose Lacquer, and he took a long time coming out of the back room... he was looking for something special - all he had ever called it was Gloss Lacquer.
    Last edited by Charlie Plesums; 08-16-2006 at 9:29 AM.

  10. #10
    I should have added notes about "ordinary" lacquer vs. catalyzed lacquer.

    Ordinary Nitrocellulose laccquer is an indoor only finish that is pretty impervious to household chemicals, and is easily repaired. However, since it is similar to finger nail polish, the finger nail polish remover that ladies love will absolutely destroy it, as will some extreme solvents used in kitchens. Great for furniture, but maybe not for high-end kitchen cabinets.

    Catalyzed lacquer is harder, less easily damaged by chemicals, but is also less easily repaired. It can be pre-catalyzed (pre-mixed) but then has a short shelf life (typically 6 months to a year). It can be post catalyzed... you mix the catalyst when you are ready to use it. I do not use it because I want the repairability (and I am not in the kitchen cabinet business).

    One of the advantages of the Target water based USL - Ultimate spray lacquer - is that it is rated for use in kitchens as well - much like a catalyzed lacquer, but it remains repairable (and I find it easier to rub out). It is more expensive, but has higher solids, so requires fewer coats. It is less tolerant of high temperatures, but is far more forgiving of humidity (so in Texas, I just spray earlier in the day).

  11. Hi Charlie, It was only recommendations to get him started, you know, for him to have a point of reference. Then he can fine tune it to what works best for him. Also if a beginner cuts the Deft to 40%, I am guessing (notice I say guessing) that he is going to have runs all over the place. I don't think anyone specified anything, just gave helpful hints. But you can disagree, you just chose a whole bunch of words to do it. You must be one really fast typist. Regards Charlie, Bill


    Quote Originally Posted by Charlie Plesums
    I disagree with anyone who specifies the amount that you should thin your lacquer... it depends on the temperature, the gun, the nozzle on the gun, the air pressure, the operator, and all the other factors. Using the Sherwin Williams lacquer, which is fairly thick (that is good - it has more "solids" per gallon), I add about 40% thinner with my HVLP conversion gun, but add little or no thinner with my (cheap) turbine HVLP gun. I thin a little more when the temperature is lower and the lacquer doesn't flow as fast. Same lacquer, same operator, different guns, different operating temperature.

    Yes, a conversion HVLP gun runs on an ordinary air compressor. I leave my compressor set at about 100 pounds. The gun has a pressure reducer at the gun, which I normally kept at about 20 pounds but recently have been trying about 25 pounds. The restrictions to airflow within the gun cut the 20 pounds to about 10 pounds at the tip (I am told). As the pressure is dropped the air expands, which helps some with the "High Volume" part of HVLP. I have a compressor with a label that says 5 hp, but since it runs on a standard 120 volt circuit, I know it can't be more than 1 1/2 real hp. The 13 gallon tank allows me to draw more air than the compressor puts out... for short periods of time, as long as I stop regularly (at the end of each stroke, and to move around) giving the compressor a chance to catch up. With my technique and the Porter Cable gun, that compressor can keep up with me... most of the time. If I notice the air pressure dropping, I just rest a minute, then keep going.

    I use gloss lacquer for everything. Sand the lacquer with 320 grit to make up for any imperfect spraying, until it is perfectly smooth (the gloss will be gone). Then sand with 600 grit for a beautiful satin finish. Sand with 800 grit and hand rub with a towel for a semigloss. The semigloss and satin lacquers have a silica powder (like fine sand or ground glass) in them to dull the finish, but they then don't "rub out" as well (Jeff Jewitt says not at all).

    If you use ordinary Nitrocellulose lacquer, it is extremely flammable. I only spray outdoors. The humidity needs to be low enough that you can see blue sky. The overspray dries before it hits the ground. I stay at least 3 feet away from the cars, just to be safe (but only 3 feet away). I use a respirator when I am spraying in confined spaces (insides of cabinets) where the air blows overspray back at me, but don't bother when I do the outsides of cabinets. (Dont try this at home...always wear a respirator rated for organic solvents)

    Gloss Lacquer is like paint thinner... so basic you don't look for special types, unless someone doctors it (like Deft puts a retarder in it so it dries more slowly and can be brushed). One time I asked the clerk at Sherwin Williams for 5 gallons of Gloss Nitrocellulose Lacquer, and he took a long time coming out of the back room... he was looking for something special - all he had ever called it was Gloss Lacquer.

  12. #12
    Thanks for all the help guys. I'm going out to buy the PC HVLP conversion gun. I will do alot of practicing before I use it on the real thing.

    Rick

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Conway, Arkansas
    Posts
    13,181
    Sheesh guys....I didn't mean to start a fight.

    But ya know...Charlie is right. I never really "measure" my thinner, I just pour it in until I know it "looks" right. Just happens to be that each year when I am doing a project that requires a lacquer finish, it's warm / hot weather and the lacquer does quiet well for me around the 20% factor. I did have to tweak it a bit when I got my new conversion gun ($99 at Lowes) that I just thin, try some spray process until I'm happy with how it sprays and covers.

    Did you know that you can spray shellac and get a nice "orange peel" effect?
    Thanks & Happy Wood Chips,
    Dennis -
    Get the Benefits of Being an SMC Contributor..!
    ....DEBT is nothing more than yesterday's spending taken from tomorrow's income.

  14. #14
    [quote=Dennis Peacock]Sheesh guys....I didn't mean to start a fight.

    Sure Dennis, Sure That avatar looks really innocent, but we really know better



    "But ya know...Charlie is right." Now, I don't mean to be picky here or anything, Buuuutt, wouldn't it be better to say that you agree with Charlie, instead of saying that he is "right"?

    Seriously, I know everyone here is well intentioned. I don't think anyone was really upset. You guys are the best...I love you man. Oh wait, I am getting mixed up with those ^*&( commercials again. Have a great weekend guys. Regards, Bill

  15. #15
    I spray deft all year long as a high school woodshop teacher. I don't thin it at all. I've never had any runs and it comes out beautiful. I use a Binks 2001 with a 66SD tip for lacquer and I typically spray 2 medium/heavy coats. I know that the old saying "2 coats are better than 1" is very true but when time is a factor sparying it the way we do it works great. I didn't come up with it on my own I got this from my college woodshop instructor.

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