View Poll Results: Waht are your feelings on forum moderation

Voters
164. You may not vote on this poll
  • Moderation too severe

    34 20.73%
  • Moderation not severe enough

    4 2.44%
  • Moderation is right on as applied

    119 72.56%
  • Should we keep the Super Moderator

    88 53.66%
  • Should we fire the Super Moderator

    14 8.54%
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Thread: Moderator Complaints Poll

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  1. #1
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Huntsville, AL (The Sun and Fun Capital of The South)
    Posts
    3,203

    Moderator Complaints Poll

    Some complaints have surfaced concerning my Moderator actions which cause me to respond here so I can test the waters. Please take the time to respond to this poll. You may make multiple choices.

    There is always a way to cure the harsh, unwarranted, censorsed, stupid, frivilous, and otherwise unpopular moderating that some folks thing I am doing. You could take a poll of the membership to see if you should petition the Administration to fire me.

    Believe me I have a lot better things to do with my time than being a moderator here. I do it because I believe in Sawmill Creek being the premier woodworking forum on the internet and will not allow it to degenerate like some other forums have. There will always be folks who enjoy stirring the pot, so to speak, and have nothing better to do. You personally might believe I am being too stern in my actions, but what you see is what you get. I will continue to moderate as I have done for the past 3 ½ years.

    We have always asked for member inputs on Sawmill Creek Operations -- Please speak up - no offenses taken.


    Happy Woodworking!!!!!!

    "Your Friendly Moderator"
    Last edited by Ken Salisbury; 08-17-2006 at 11:22 AM.

  2. #2
    Ken,

    I haven't posted much lately, but I had to post to this.

    Your actions are greatly appreciated by the vast majority here. The fact of the matter is that this site has a few unique rules, which you enforce. This place in unique and special because of the rules set up.

    Some people see these rules as being selfish and stand offish. I don't and truely enjoy being a member here.

    Keep up the good work!
    Jeff Sudmeier

    "It's not the quality of the tool being used, it's the skills of the craftsman using the tool that really matter. Unfortunately, I don't have high quality in either"

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
    Location
    Lewiston, Idaho
    Posts
    28,504
    You AIN'T going to get off that easy! Earn you pay.....Moderate! when you're not turning or fishing........
    Ken

    So much to learn, so little time.....

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    University Place, Washington
    Posts
    1,268
    Your doing a fine job Ken and I think you should take the rest of the day off, with pay, as a reward . No problems here .
    Sometimes we see what we expect to see, and not what we are looking at! Scott

  5. Ken, I think you do a great job, and one that most would not want to do.

    I don't always understand or agree with everything you do, but I do not see it all, as you do in the Mod job, thus, you sir, have my utmost respect.

    Thank you for the job you do.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Dec 2005
    Location
    Pennsylvania
    Posts
    896
    Listen Ken. I disagreed with the closing of the sawstop thread when you did it. After re-reading the TOS, if you thought the discussion was political, you were obligated to remove the thread.

    I do think it's a gray area as to whether or not it was truly "political". That's ok, though. If you think it was, I respect your opinion enough to live with it.

    I do take offense to this though:

    Quote Originally Posted by Ken Salisbury
    There will always be folks who enjoy stirring the pot, so to speak, and have nothing better to do.
    I was the one who posted the original complaint about the thread being locked. My feelings were that it was a great discussion that was not offensive or inflammatory. I don't think I was out of line to question it's removal. It's not fair to say that we "have nothing better to do" than to stir the pot. That bothers me.

    All that said, you're doing a fine job with moderation. Not everyone will agree with every action. Nature of the beast.
    Last edited by Rob Bodenschatz; 08-17-2006 at 11:49 AM.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Splendora, TX
    Posts
    703
    I use to bisit a couple of the other wwing sites but didn't like the atmosphere, luckily I found the Creek with its civil nature and the mods in place to keep it that way. I figute if there are those who don't like how this site is being operated they can do as I did on the other sites...stop going there.

    That said I do thing it is perfecly acceptable for people to ask why a post got yanked and even express their disagreement but also realize that everyone may interpret things differently and respect the moderators decisions.
    David

  8. #8
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    North Bend, WA
    Posts
    93
    I always have to make certain that I dial back my roughness as though I'm dealing with a 4 year old with self esteem issues when I post here.

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Erik Rudd
    I always have to make certain that I dial back my roughness as though I'm dealing with a 4 year old with self esteem issues when I post here.
    If your not in the "in crowd" here, you definitely have to walk on egg shells.

    So again, I feel I must ask, what is the point of this thread? Is Ken just beating around the bush looking for compliments, or is he really interested in your thoughts on how he moderates? If he is truly interested in your thoughts then why would he state that he will continue to moderate the same as he always has and why hasn't he taken the time to reply to some of your gracious comments.
    Not trying to be harsh, just trying to understand the mind set behind the thread.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Jones
    Is Ken just beating around the bush looking for compliments, or is he really interested in your thoughts on how he moderates?
    Heh. Well, I understand Ken likes fishing...maybe he's just doing fishing of another kind by starting this thread.

    But I'll give Ken the benefit of the doubt and bank on him genuinely wanting a discussion of moderation here. Which, as I noted earlier, raises a bit of a problem -- we can't really discuss if SMC's moderation is good or bad without first understanding what good moderation is. That is, we have to first establish what yardstick we're using. Otherwise it's just a bunch of guys saying "yup, it's good" or "nope, it isn't," which isn't terribly enlightening.

    I had hoped in an earlier post that some of you might share your views on the yardsticks you use in reaching your conclusions. Well, it's Saturday and bound to be over 100 here in Dallas, so I've got time; here's mine, humbly submitted for your comments.

    1. Good moderators have a thick skin.

    And I mean an actual thick skin -- rolling with the punches. Lots of folks say they have a thick skin, but really don't. It isn't really a thick skin if a mod deletes threads that criticize him or starts polls designed to stroke his ego.

    N.B., there are things a moderator shouldn't put up with -- vulgarity, personal insults, that sort of thing. Polite and restrained criticisms of actions taken in his capacity as moderator are one thing; calling him names is quite another.

    2. Good moderators reserve thread deletion for narrow, well-defined instances.

    Like, f'rinstance, spamming or persistent sock-puppets. Otherwise, thread deletion is just revisionist history, the equivelant of Stalin altering photos to remove Leon Trotsky. Locking a thread is one thing -- it can indeed stop a trainwreck in the making -- and deletion quite another; the latter essentially says "this never happened." But it did.

    3. Good moderators give warning before closing a thread.

    This is just common courtesy, particularly if a thread has attracted a lot of forum participation -- there are many members who are enjoying the thread (otherwise, why would they be participating?). If a mod thinks a discussion has taken a turn for the worse, he should give the participants a chance to turn the thread around before he cuts off the discussion entirely.

    4. Good moderators favor moving off-topic threads rather than thread closure.

    If the reason for mod action is that discussion is taking place in the wrong forum, the better answer is to move the thread rather than closing it. This allows the discussion to continue while keeping the thread easy to find.

    Closing the thread and suggesting that participants open a new one is problematic because many forum participants won't know to look in the new forum; moving the thread puts a placeholder link in the old forum, so everyone can easily find their way over to the correct location. The placeholder link doesn't get "bumped" to the top of the original forum, so it doesn't clog up the original forum.

    Really good moderation goes one step further and bumps the thread to the top of the old forum before moving it -- that way, the placeholder link stays on the front page of the old forum for a little while, making it easier for forum participants to see that it has been moved.

    5. Good moderators distinguish betwen vigorous discussion and trainwrecks when closing threads.

    This means, in part, actually reading the thread. Passionate discussions are a good thing. They only become a problem when people start insulting one another, rather than trying to reason together.

    A good moderator will ask himself "are there personal attacks in this thread," and perhaps try to identify such attacks, before deciding to close a thread. If only one or two posters are doing the attacking, and everyone else is swimming along nicely, he might even consider simply admonishing the individuals involved rather than closing the thread outright.

    Nobody wants this place to be another "Wreck Wood." Most folks, myself included, like this place because it's friendly, and good, firm moderation is a large part of that. But a place can be friendly without also being sterile. No one wants feel like they have to constantly walk on eggshells.

    6. Good moderators distinguish between criticisms of their actions as moderators and personal attacks.


    This is a corollary to #1, I suppose. Just because a poster thinks a mod dropped the ball in one instance doesn't mean that poster thinks the mod is a terrible moderator, and it certainly doesn't mean those criticims should be taken as a personal attack. You can tell a person "you could've done a lot better" without it being an attack on their character.

    7. Good moderators respond to reasonable requests about what the TOS means.


    And if they can't give a definitive answer, they ask a higher-up. I'd still like to know if "politics" encompasses "government regulation of woodworking devices or the woodworking industry" or if -- as many here think, myself included -- that it is only meant to encompass topics of a typically partisan nature (Iraq, abortion, the Bush admin, etc.).

    Well, that's what I've come up with this morning at least. And yes, those items are a reflection of the threads that lead to this one. However, as always, let me reiterate: I think Ken is a good moderator, I respect the work he does here, and just because I think he dropped the ball (multiple times) in his handling of the SawStop threads does NOT mean I think he shouldn't be a moderator here.

    As long as I'm making lists, let me make one containing principles for good forum members.

    1. Good forum members aren't jerks.

    Not really a problem here at SMC, but I think it's the basic standard for good forum members. I admit, this could be refined -- it's a more than a little subjective as written -- but I think it captures things nicely.

    2. Good forum members don't constantly suck up to moderators.

    Expressing appreciation now and again is one thing; thankless efforts should not always go unthanked. But there's a point where it gets annoying. Here's a guide: if you sound like a 12-year-old girl gushing about the latest boy band, you need to dial it back a bit.

    3. Good forum members don't constantly root for the forum.

    "WOOOO, THIS FORUM IS THE GREATEST PLACE ON THE INTARWEB!!! THERE'S NO PLACE BETTER!!!! I LOVE THIS FORUM MORE THAN I LOVE MY WIFE!!!!!"

    Good heavens, dial it back. First of all, you're preaching to the choir; people wouldn't hang out here if they didn't like it. Second, this isn't a high school pep rally. Third, unless you've literally visited every site on the internet, your statement is uninformed. Fourth, for God's sake, using a bunch of exclamation marks makes you look silly.

    4. Good forum members don't make long lists about what is good or bad.

    I mean, really, what kind of pretentious wanker would do such a thing?

    Last edited by Damien Falgoust; 08-19-2006 at 11:10 AM.

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Damien Falgoust
    Heh. Well, I understand Ken likes fishing...maybe he's just doing fishing of another kind by starting this thread.
    It could also be that Ken has nothing better to do than stir the pot by starting such a trivial thread. Then sit back and watch it unfold and cause even more division or controversy. Because no matter how much you discuss the moderating on this forum and how you think a moderator such moderate, nothing will come from it.
    Please don't take this as an anti Ken post, on the contrary, I like Ken, he is quick witted and an excellent woodworker. Sometimes I just don't understand his logic.
    my opinion
    Last edited by Doug Jones; 08-19-2006 at 11:28 AM.

  12. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Jones
    Then sit back and watch it unfold and cause even more division or controversy.
    KEN IS A DOUBLE AGENT!

    I claim the movie rights.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    In the foothills of the Sandia Mountains
    Posts
    16,619
    Quote Originally Posted by Doug Jones
    If your not in the "in crowd" here, you definitely have to walk on egg shells.
    Doug, I hate comments like that.
    Define “in crowd”. I have been a member of SMC from day one; I think I was the 17th to join. I don’t consider myself a member of any “in crowd”. I try to be civil and sensitive to others feelings when I post and don’t find that too difficult – I worked in machine shops for close to 30 years, I can rant & cuss with the best of them! Sure there are some posts and even some questions that irritate the crap out of me, but if I choose to respond, I am able to respond civilly.
    Please help support the Creek.


    "It's paradoxical that the idea of living a long life appeals to everyone, but the idea of getting old doesn't appeal to anyone."
    Andy Rooney



  14. #14
    I can't find rec woodworking. It CAN'T be THAT bad.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Mar 2005
    Location
    Southwest Florida
    Posts
    1,482
    Much better to have a little too severe moderation than not severe enough. I have tried some of the forums of the not severe enough type and they are a mess. I do not go back because they are a waste of time.

    I think that the moderators are very good here and that is a primary reason that this site is so good. I also think that the requirement that you use your real name is also a contributing factor. I would not even mind seeing a requirement that you have to list your correct location.

    Whatever it takes to keep the jerks out of here. Yes, I said jerks and I mean it. A lot of you members know the types that I am talking about from being on other foums.

    To everyone that works to keep this forum a great place to visit: KEEP UP THE GOOD WORK!!!!!

    Allen

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