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Thread: Jointer advice/comments please

  1. #1

    Jointer advice/comments please

    Hi poeple,

    Thanks for all the help with choosing planes and tools for setting up my 'toolbox'. I was recomended to get a jointer especially since I plan to be dimensioning wood by hand.

    So I have come to another of those "Which one?" stages.

    I have come down to two planes, the LN no.7 or the Veritas LA jointer. I ruled out the LN LA jointer as it has no adjustable mouth which I thought would make it just a little less versatile.

    Any comment, suggestions or advice would be greatly welcomed.

    Thanks

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    extreme southeast Nebraska
    Posts
    3,113
    Sorry, I can't help you, I only use woodies or transitional antiques.
    Jr.
    Hand tools are very modern- they are all cordless
    NORMAL is just a setting on the washing machine.
    Be who you are and say what you feel... because those that matter... don't mind...and those that mind...don't matter!
    By Hammer and Hand All Arts Do Stand

  3. #3
    Hi Harry, Thanks for the reply anyway

    Was it your nice tennon router I saw on a post somewhere?
    I was thinking about a 140 screw block plane for cleaning up tennon cheecks, but after seeing that I was thinking I might try and make a tennon router like yours (if it was yours ). But I am not sure about the blade though.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    extreme southeast Nebraska
    Posts
    3,113
    Yes, Robert, the blades are easy to make, just watch the upcoming tutoral on the hand router.

    And I might have answered your jointer question in my post (I just don't get it?)
    Jr.
    Hand tools are very modern- they are all cordless
    NORMAL is just a setting on the washing machine.
    Be who you are and say what you feel... because those that matter... don't mind...and those that mind...don't matter!
    By Hammer and Hand All Arts Do Stand

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Laguna Beach , Ca.
    Posts
    7,201
    Robert,
    You have narrowed it down to 2 great planes! Both my favorites.....I own the LV low angle jointer with the fence and it is a true performer...The LN # 7 is a beauty and I have enjoyed using it at shows and friends shops. It is a conventional bevel plane The LN is probably the most precise jointer I have used of the #7 variety and the workmanship and style is outstanding...It is a tough call...I do really like the fence on the LV...it helps to insure square which keeps joined boards flat...I guess I didn't help
    "All great work starts with love .... then it is no longer work"

  6. #6
    Hi Harry,

    I read your other post. And I can see what you are saying about jointing boards.

    Do you dimension lumber? I was under the impression that a jointer sized plane would be best here and and that is one of the reasons I am looking at the jointer plane. the other is obviously for jointing.

    Thanks, Robert.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    extreme southeast Nebraska
    Posts
    3,113
    Robert I rarely dimension lumber completely by hand, except when out demoing, I usually take the wind or bow out of one side and then use the lunchbox tailed cousin. I generaly use the tablesaw for ripping to width also, when not out demoing.
    Last edited by harry strasil; 09-22-2006 at 2:09 AM.
    Jr.
    Hand tools are very modern- they are all cordless
    NORMAL is just a setting on the washing machine.
    Be who you are and say what you feel... because those that matter... don't mind...and those that mind...don't matter!
    By Hammer and Hand All Arts Do Stand

  8. #8
    I'm not Harry but I'll tell you how I was taught to prepare stock by hand.

    Put the side that makes the board stable down and clamp front to back. If you clamp down you'll bend the board and it won't be straight when you unclamp it.

    Use winding sticks to check for twist. Use a scrub plane to get the twist out of the board. You can use one of the winding sticks to check the front to back condition of the board and use the scrub plane to get it flat front to back. Check for twist again with the winding sticks.

    You board should be flat now, but it'll have grooves in it from the scrub plane. Use a #5 or #6 to plane the board down until the scrub plane marks are gone. Then use a #4 or 4 1/2 to smooth the board, all the while using the winding sticks to check for flat and twist.

    Now, joint the two side edges - you do this so that you can see your marks in the next step.

    Decide how thick you want the board to be. For most stock, that'll be about 3/4 inch. Use a marking gauge and mark a line on both sides 3/4 inch (or whatever you need) down both sides (that's 3/4 inch from the surfaced face).

    Clamp the board front to back with the flat (prepared) side down. Using the scrub plane again, take the board down to about 1/16 inch of your marks. Use the fore plane to remove the marks, then the smoothing plane to smooth it out. Bring it down to your marks on the sides of the board. Use the winding sticks to make sure the board is flat across, front to back, and corner to corner. Your board should now be flat and of the proper thickness.

    Decide how wide you want the board and using a combination square or large marking gauge, mark the board to width. If close to the width of the stock, plane to the line. If much wider, use a rip saw to cut to width. Use a plane to remove the saw marks and take the board to the line.

    Now crosscut one end and trim square with a shooting board. Measure to length, crosscut the other end and trim square on a shooting board.

    You now have a piece of hand prepared stock and very sore muscles. And a real appreciation for a powered jointer and planer.

    Mike
    Last edited by Mike Henderson; 09-22-2006 at 2:23 AM.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    extreme southeast Nebraska
    Posts
    3,113
    MIke, when I do dimension by hand, altho I do have a couple of scrubs, my planes are sharpened the old fashioned way with a radius to the jack and a slight radius to the fore. I usually use the jack as a scrub then the fore at a 45 to board length and finally the long jointer to finish, then repeat for the other side, except I chamfer the long edges to almost the line so its easy to see the progress I am making.
    Jr.
    Hand tools are very modern- they are all cordless
    NORMAL is just a setting on the washing machine.
    Be who you are and say what you feel... because those that matter... don't mind...and those that mind...don't matter!
    By Hammer and Hand All Arts Do Stand

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by harry strasil
    MIke, when I do dimension by hand, altho I do have a couple of scrubs, my planes are sharpened the old fashioned way with a radius to the jack and a slight radius to the fore. I usually use the jack as a scrub then the fore at a 45 to board length and finally the long jointer to finish, then repeat for the other side, except I chamfer the long edges to almost the line so its easy to see the progress I am making.
    Harry, I certainly wasn't trying to say that the technique I described was the only way to prepare stock - it's just the way I was taught. I've seen people use a jack to scrub but I haven't tried it since I have a scrub plane and it seems to remove a lot of stock quickly. I like your idea of the chamfer and will use that next time I do stock preparation.

    Not that it makes a lot of difference, but I use metal planes (mostly) while I assume you mostly use wood and transitional planes.

    But like you, I avoid hand preparation of stock unless I don't have any other choice. To me, stock preparation is just hard physical labor. I'd rather use a powered jointer and planer and save my hand work for the actual building of the furniture.

    Mike

  11. #11
    Thanks Mike for the run down on one way of dimensioning stock. And once again Harry you have given a little tip tha may come in handy. (shamfer the side)

    My workshop is more of a small garden shed and I will have no room to put a thickness planer or jointer even if I wanted to. So neccesity dictates hand preparation.

    So Mike going by your method then a jointer plane may not be needed

    My original thoughts were of just having an LA jack as my largest plane. Switching out different blades for different application. Ex jack work, semi-scrub work and smoothing. And then use a #4 smoother to finish off with. But a few of the kind locals here suggested that a jointer was in order to reduce the workload and effort needed to be put in.

    Going by my thoughts about project at the moment, the maximum length of my stock would be in 6 feet or 7 feet range.

    What is suggested to be the largest plane? For jointing and stock preparation.

    (and Harry, I will look into making up a shooting board as you suggested but I will have to think about it so that it can be stored in the limited space.)

    Thanks ...Hmmm...What else

  12. #12
    Don't know that a jointer size plane will reduce the workload and effort in foursquaring. What the jointer length plane does is aid in getting that final flat surface, whether it be on an edge or on a face. Harry's "jointer" shooting board is an excellent idea and takes much of the driving of the plane out of the hands of the user when edge jointing. I use the term "driving" because hand planes, unlike thier tailed cousins, have to be driven. It is not a simple matter of running the tool over the board as one would run the board over the tailed jointer or through the tailed planer, in order to obtain the coplanar surfaces one is striving for.

    The idea is to use the plane to take down the high areas while not removing wood from the low ones. First step is to find the high areas. Harry's shooting board basically does that for you, rather it establishes a straight line to which you bring the edge of the board and anything on the good side of that line is prevented from being cut by the fence guiding the plane.

    For face jointing (which generally does not have to be near as accurately done as an edge which will be glued to another edge to made a wide piece or etc) the ideal is to start off determining the high places, mark them as needed and then use a shorter plane, be it a scrub or even a smoother sized plane or a jack to begin removing them. Since this initial work is diagonal or even straight across the grain, length of the plane is mainly only relevant to the mass of the tool you're pushing through the wood. I won't go into the two sides of that coin.

    Once you've removed the bulk of the high places you need to remove the grooves across the board left by that rankly set highly radiused blade by using a plane oriented across those grooves and more or less in line with the grain of the wood. A shorter plane again will make quicker work initially of this as it will not span quite so far, but again you need to drive the plane by identifying the highest places on the board and work them down first. As you begin to be able to take fairly long uninterrupted shaving over the length of the board, a longer plane will help to give you a truer surface with less guidance on your part by spanning over the less high places between two places within its length, only removing the very tallest places. But you still must drive it, especially as you get nearer that very flat surface you are striving for. Otherwise you can end up taking wood from some lower place, especially as you work longer boards, and any low area you remove wood from will require that much more thickness to be lost as every other area of the board will have to be lowered to that level.

    While you could get away with your longest plane being a try or fore plane, a longer jointer will help in the final steps. Heck, you could joint a face with a little smooth, but longer planes help you get there quicker and with as little effort as possible.
    Someone said the real test of a craftsman is his ability to recover from his mistakes. I'm practicing real hard for that test.

  13. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry Palmer
    While you could get away with your longest plane being a try or fore plane, a longer jointer will help in the final steps. Heck, you could joint a face with a little smooth, but longer planes help you get there quicker and with as little effort as possible.
    Hear hear.

  14. #14
    Thanks a lot everyone. Lots of advice and information to digest. This post and Harry's have been really helpful.

    I will be gathering all this great advice and sticking it into a little notebook I think. I should end up with a really great woodwoorking tips books.Thanks

    OK back to including a jointer (longer plane ) into my list.

    Are there any reason for choosing either the Veritas LA jointer or the LN #7 over the other. Or is it just a matter of what I thinks looks and feels good to me. (The feeling part is a bit tough as I can't )

    I am not too worried about the $100 extra for the LN if it would be a better plane. This would be my one and only jointer sized plane and it will have to last a lifetime. So the "best" option is what I am after (if there is such a thing )

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Feb 2004
    Location
    Perth, Australia
    Posts
    9,467
    Hi Robert

    I believe that the choice of the Veritas BUJ or the LN #7 is really going to end up a personal decision for you. On one level their performances could be equal and then the choice is simply about preference for a style of plane. The LN is a "traditional" type while the Veritas is "innovative" and - amazingly - this difference seems to create rivalries among respective followers. One takes ones life in ones hand just to comment these days! More seriously, there are real differences in "feel", with the BD plane offering a higher centre of effort, and the BU plane offers a lower centre of effort.

    Since I predominantly work with woods that have a high percentage of interlinked grain, I prefer a jointer that can use switch to a high cutting angle. One can do this on the LN (just add a backbevel), but it is easier on the Veritas (swapping a blade is easier when minus the chipbreaker). If I were working less demanding wood grain, or did not view the issue of tearout as significantly as I do, then my Stanley #7 (with aftermaket blade and chipbreaker) does a very satisfactory job.

    I own and use the BUJ, have used the LN but have not compared them against each other. I suggest that you do so for yourself.

    Lastly, have a read through my review of the BUJ. This may throw out questions or provide some answers as it was contrasted with my Stanley #7:

    http://www.wkfinetools.com/contrib/d...nter/index.asp

    Regards from Perth

    Derek

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