Wenzloff & Son's Saws

[Alan DuBoff]

In case any of you don't follow Chris Schwartz's blog, he recentely had a glowing post about the wonderful saws that Mike Wenzloff & Sons made for him.

Click here for Chris Schwartz's blog post on sash saws here

Great to read Chris's comments, but most interesting to read McConnell's quote. This is interesting to me as I've been critisized in the past, on another piece of Al Gore's info highway for suggesting that people would want to have 2 saws of each size, one filed rip and one filed crosscut.

Mostly it seems that trades people take exception to this comment, or old curmudgeons that will insist folks do things their way, or that you can do the same work with a dull butter knife and a big rock at no expense. The premise seems to be that they can do the same work with only a couple tools and that no fool would need or want to buy so many.

Being that I'm only a hobbyist, I don't need to squeeze ever last piece of value out of a single tool. Certainly not over convenience of having more than one of the same tool to use for different purposes, in the case I can afford it. Vintage saws sell for reasonable prices, even today. It's not like purchasing a house.

I'll probably get the virtual spittle treatment for some of these comments, but what the hey, bring it on you 'ol curmudgeons, it won't be the first time, and I'm wearing my virtual foul weather gear!

[Jerry Palmer]

LMAO!

The only tool that I have sinfully coveted from my first sight of one is the Disston half back saw. Not that I thought it was a particularly useful tool, only that I really like the looks of it. But even my covetedness could not justify in my mind the price of an original. Then I saw that Mike and the boys were replicating them in their line of saws. Well, week before last I was in an unusually dispirited mood for some reason and then I saw someone had posted a link to the Wenzloff and Sons website. I clicked the link and voila! there was the saw of my dreams. Now, I'm both cheap and impatient and it seems lots of folks really like Mike's saws, and I saw where he mentioned that they had orders for something over 100 saws. A good part of the time spent in making a saw is occupied in the final shaping of the tote and fitting of the blade into it. That being the case, some of my impatience could be alleviated by getting the saw in kit form and it would also cost me less to do that, so I clicked the buy button and ordered one in kit form. It cam in last week and I found time over the weekend to get at it. Even took some pics which I posted in something of a tutorial on my website. http://home.austin.rr.com/sawduster/.../Saw%20Kit.htm

Here is the result of our combined labors.



As to the gist of your post, one could give a very good argument that your ascertion of needing one of each sized saw in both rip and crosscut does not go far enough. If the purpose of a tool is to maximize the efficency of the user, one could argue that a model in crosscut and rip for each was needed also for cutting softwood and another set for hardwoods. For maximum efficiency, one might need one each of all of the aforementioned for different thicknesses of wood one might need to cut as a handsaw works most efficiently with a specific number of teeth within the saw kerf at a time.

Of course, at some point in this process efficiency will be lost due to too many choices to choose from. I've got a lot of saws, many more than I need, but I find myself reaching for one of a half dozen or so 90% of the time. Now we're talkin full length handsaws, panels saws, and backsaws from larger ones to smaller ones and even a coping saw included in the regularly used ones.

In the olden days woodworking trades were quite divided into different types of work and though there was a wide variety of saws and other tools available, folks would generally have only some generally used tools and some specific to their particular trade.

You can take your virtual spittle protection suit off. It ain't nobody's business but your own what tools you have and/or want as a hobbiest or a pro. So what that carpenters of Jesus' time did 90% of their work with mallets and chisels. If you want to use five saws to cut a single DT, that's your business, and if you want to have all of the saws included above in duplicates so you always have a sharp one on hand, that's up to you.

[Alan DuBoff]

I clicked the link and voila! there was the saw of my dreams. Now, I'm both cheap and impatient and it seems lots of folks really like Mike's saws, and I saw where he mentioned that they had orders for something over 100 saws.

Jerry,

Beautiful saw. Very nicely done. I used to exchange a lot of mail with Mike when he was first getting started (there was a point where Mike wasn't sure if one could get enough business to make saws and/or be competitive against the LNs, Adrias, etc...;-), and we had many a conversation about the No 8, which stem'd from Mike's original question to me, "do you think people would buy a No 8 if it was made?".

I actually had wanted Mike to make me a dovetail saw that was based on the No 8, but had a slightly longer back, say like half way down, or 3/4 of the way. I wanted it filed much finer, and what you've come up with is very similar (seeing you had 16 points cut for the teeth). Yeah, yeah, Mike was always trying to talk me into a full size No 8, like you have...but Mike has always tried to talk me into larger handsaws in general.

I have a very unusual 12" saw Mike made for me, it has 4" of blade on it. The idea was to use it for cutting joinery in 12/4 (or similar) wood. A laminate of 2 8/4 actually. It could have been longer, and a 16" saw with 4" wouldn't be bad, more like a large sash saw.

I had also prodded Mike to build larger panel and other handsaws for crosscutting and ripping stock. I don't use them myself as I use a table saw and/or SCMS for that work, that to me is dimensioning timbers/lumber. Since he started doing it, he's sold a good number of them, AFAIK, though. If you make good quality tools, people will buy them, IMO. Some curmudgeon says folks waste their money as they can pick up an old Disston at a flea for $5 that will "work just fine". No arguments, but that doesn't make owning good quality tools unfounded.

As to the gist of your post, one could give a very good argument that your ascertion of needing one of each sized saw in both rip and crosscut does not go far enough. If the purpose of a tool is to maximize the efficency of the user, one could argue that a model in crosscut and rip for each was needed also for cutting softwood and another set for hardwoods. For maximum efficiency, one might need one each of all of the aforementioned for different thicknesses of wood one might need to cut as a handsaw works most efficiently with a specific number of teeth within the saw kerf at a time.

I absolutely agree, but at some point one needs to be a realist to have some type of balance. If one found themself using a particular softwood/hardwood combination on a regular basis, that certainly could warrant such a quiver. I do use multiple 3/8", 1/4", and 1/8" chisels, I have 2 of each size I keep sharpened so I don't need to stop while working on something to sharpen (and I just picked up a 3rd Stanley 750 1/4" off the oldtools list from a guy for $6 that is in very nice shape). For $6, I'll pick up an extra chisel I use regularly in a heartbeat. Wasting money? Not to me...making my work habits more comfortable. Sure, I could touch them up on a waterstone, just interrupts my workflow to do so (and I will keep one with a lower bevel for paring/softwoods). I like to take the time all at once and touch up all my common chisels, so I don't need to do it while I'm working. There's about 2 dozen common ones, about 1 dozen I use and require sharpening at that time (bench chisels, not mortise chisels).

Of course, at some point in this process efficiency will be lost due to too many choices to choose from. I've got a lot of saws, many more than I need, but I find myself reaching for one of a half dozen or so 90% of the time. Now we're talkin full length handsaws, panels saws, and backsaws from larger ones to smaller ones and even a coping saw included in the regularly used ones.

I have 3 coping saws, and one fret saw, and there have been times when I've broken all but one blade being impatient and trying to force the cut (dovetail waste on hardwoods).

You can take your virtual spittle protection suit off.

One thing you might have noticed, under my protection suite lies some pretty tough skin.

BTW, I still have the saw I bought from you, have been meaning to file it crosscut, just haven't gotten around to it. Handle feels nice on it (I think you might have shellac'd it). Some would say I'm extreme, I even believe that one needs a rip and a crosscut of a gent's saw...(I have a pair of old Disston 68s, one I bought from Walt, one I bought from Todd). Yep, same saws that used to sell for $20-$25 that now sell for twice that...who would have figured...???). Old tools can be an investment, not that I reccomend it, but it's better than buying something new from Woodcraft and watching it go down in value. A lot of people do that...not that it's bad, a tool is a tool afterall and if you use it, I think it's hard to place any type of monetary value to it. Use the tools that allow you to work as you see fit I say!

[Jerry Palmer]

I like the look and feel of shellac on tool handles, and pretty much always pad some on the wood of any tool I refurbish.

In addition to the saw from Mike, I've got one of the first ones that Nordic sold as well as an early one by TimHof over at WN. They're the only new saws I have that I use regularly.

Almost had to arm wrestle Mike to get him to cut the half back at 16 PPI . But that was because he wants folks to be happy and he finally said that if the 16 PPI didn't work out, he'd recut the teeth in a more conventional pitch for that model of saw.

The Disston 12 that I rehandled is my favorite full size saw, and it gets used for cutting hardwoods to rough length.

[Alan DuBoff]

I like the look and feel of shellac on tool handles, and pretty much always pad some on the wood of any tool I refurbish.

Yes, I agree.

In addition to the saw from Mike, I've got one of the first ones that Nordic sold as well as an early one by TimHof over at WN. They're the only new saws I have that I use regularly.

Nice little quiver of saw makers in the woodworking community.

Almost had to arm wrestle Mike to get him to cut the half back at 16 PPI . But that was because he wants folks to be happy and he finally said that if the 16 PPI didn't work out, he'd recut the teeth in a more conventional pitch for that model of saw.

I think you might have won because he was so tired after arm wrestling with me. Mike always tries to convince me to go with larger saws, with coarser teeth.

The Disston 12 that I rehandled is my favorite full size saw, and it gets used for cutting hardwoods to rough length.

Certainly handy to have one for that type of work when needed. I have a miter I use, with a 14" backsaw. Most of the time I will dimension my timber/lumber to size so I don't need to rip and/or crosscut too much of it. If I only need to make a couple cuts, I'll use a hand saw. Otherwise I'm not too proud to use a table saw and/or SCMS, both of which have tails.

[Roger Nixon]

Well, I'm an old curmudgeon and you're wasting your money!

Seriously, who of us sticks to only the bare minimum of tools? I am an old tool guy but I lust over Wenzloff saws and C&W planes.

[Jerry Palmer]

Well, I'm an old curmudgeon and you're wasting your money!

Seriously, who of us sticks to only the bare minimum of tools? I am an old tool guy but I lust over Wenzloff saws and C&W planes.

Hey, they offer the best of both worlds, Old Tool Quality with new wood and metal. I'm still saving my pennies for a couple or more C&W planes.

[Bob Hallowell]

Jerry,
You did a real nice job on that saw. 1 question though Why did you want such a fine tpi? on that big of a saw.

Bob

[Jerry Palmer]

I'm a masochist and wanted to torcher myself old eyes fileing a lot of itty bitty teeth.

Actually Mike asked the same question. I found myself recently on a number of occassions needing to make some deeper joinery cuts than my backsaws would allow and I ended up using a panel saw I have with small teeth on it. The smoothness of the cut is more important than the speed to me.

I also had him cut them with a rake for crosscutting, but I filed them with just an ever so small amount of fleam so they are basically rip teeth with just a little bit of a knife edge. The saw starts very smoothly and easily without any hopping, and leaves an excellent surface in the cut. I also set the teeth at the lowest setting of my saw set before filing, so even a bit of that was removed. Just barely enough kerf for clearence and very difficult to turn. If I get it started on a line, it cuts on it all the way down. Of course if I get it started off of the line, I'm screwed.

[Mike Wenzloff]

Well, I'm honored both by Chris' blog and mention of it here. Chris has included us 3 times and twice someone has gotten a hold of me to let me know about it before I even knew [Chris told me on the first one].

The Kenyon sash saws are obviously just larger tenon saws. A good size. I have used a 14" one for countless years. Some people have thought I was nuts to use a saw of that length [I like longer strokes and coarser teeth, huh Alan and Jerry ! ]

Now I just point them to Chris' entry on the big Kenyon tenon, which at 19" takes the focus off the 14" one I use!

Here's the saw in question:





Though Chris photography leaves mine in the dust.

Thanks again, Alan. It was a pleasant surprise to see this thread yesterday.

Take care, Mike