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Thread: shed wall construction

  1. #1

    shed wall construction

    Sorry about the long post.

    I am wondering if there might be some builders or architects and the like or anyone really, who could give some advice on the wall construction of a shed.

    A little Background:-

    I want to build a small garden shed (about 9' x 4') with vertical hardwood siding (15mm or 5/8" T&G). I want the shed to be very weather proof as I will be storing woodworking tools and the like in it.
    I live in a typhoon/cylone/hurricane area. (allowing for the different folks here )

    I am thinking of 2x3" frame (vertical studs with horizontal noggings at the siding fixing locations) and then sheet the wall on the exterior side with ply. (9mm or 3/8") and then cover this with building paper or weather sheeting (not sure of the technical term)

    Now to my problem:-

    My original plan was to then fix the vertical siding over the ply and paper sheeting.

    I then talked to some people and they suggested I should but horizontal battens on the wall and then put the siding over that. So as to let water escape and for airflow behind the siding. I can see the logic...

    1. But... if you put horizontal battens then there is no space for water to escape anyway is there. So there seems no point. Quite the contrary I would think. By the way I don't need the battens for fixing as I will have the noggins.
    2. Also I have two doors (double doors - faced with the T&G vertical siding) on the front that take up about 2/3 of the whole wall. and a single door at the side which takes up the majority of that short wall. So do I need to put battens on the doors, too, for weather proofing? If not, then I don't really see the need for battens on the small bit of remaining wall.
    3. So...could I just fix the siding over the ply sheet with the building paper on it and fix through the ply into the horizontal noggins of the wall frame? Will this give good weather proofing still without the air gap with the battens?
    4. OR how do battens allow for water dissapation if it gets through the T&G.
    5. Also at the corners of the shed I don't want the typical weather board house corner piece sticking out. This would make the shed a little traditional or country looking and I want a clean modern look to match in with our garden. So I wanted the T&G siding to just flow around the corner if you know what I mean. With battens, how do I fix the corner siding boards as the batten space would be at the location of one of the fixing. (for two face point fixings due to wind loads)
    6. Also is there some way to fix the siding without driving double screws through the face of the boards. Ie. not see the fixings?(wind loads)
    Now all this is important to me as I have to obtain the final slab dimension and then I have to make the doors just as weather resistant. So once I get the wall construction nailed down I have to decide on the door construction. Which I hope I can get some more help with later.

    Thanks to anyone who got through all this.
    And any comments would be welcome.
    Robert

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
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    New Orleans LA
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    An Amateur's Answer

    If you used tongue and grouve siding could you blind nail through the tonge as one does with hardwood flooring? Furthermore, if you wrapped the studs with tarpaper, felt, or building wrap before applying the siding would you need the plywood sheathing? Just some thoughts from a hacker...
    18th century nut --- Carl

  3. #3
    Join Date
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    Redwood City, CA
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    "noggings"? Once again, we are separated by a common language.

    The theory for battens is that water will penetrate through the cracks between the siding boards, and without the battens will be trapped against the back of the siding, rotting or at least cupping the boards. You don't have to make the battens exactly horizontal, and they can have gaps, so water can fall out the bottom of the wall.

    I'm not sure I understand the issue at the corner. You fasten two siding planks together at right angles, and enclose the corner with that L-shape. It doesn't matter whether that L-shape is fastened to battens or to a wall done without battens.

    As to fastening the siding without visible fasteners, you might look into the hidden fastening systems intended for decks. However, considering that you're in hurricane territory, I'd use visible fasteners. With heads on the outside of the siding, they have a better chance of staying attaced in high winds. If you're concerned about rust stains, you could use stainless or bronze screws. They're expensive, but this isn't a huge project.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jun 2006
    Location
    cheasapeake, va
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    92

    rain screen

    where do you live?

    it sounds like you are somewhere on the east coast and the best answer would be to run vinyl board and batten (or solid t-3 soffit vertically). while vinyl has a less-than-appealing look (and reputation) it will outperform wood in almost all areas (lower maintenance, no painting, and no rotting).

    i, however, just redid the exterior of my shed (nothing important stored there so weatherproofing isn't a real concern) with crappy cedar siding from the hd. i stained and sealed it so it would have some kind of protection from the weather but i'm not expecting to live here much longer (less than five years) so i didn't build it to last forever. i put the siding direcly over 1/2" osb with 15 lb felt paper as a vapor barrier. i haven't had any water inside and it has been through yesterday's northeastern (2-4" of rain) and hurricane ernesto (8-10" of rain)earlier this summer.

    what your friends are referring to is a rain screen. if you can get your hands on the march 06 journal of light construction magazine, gary katz does a great job explaining and building one. basically, it provides air flow behind the siding allowing for it to dry out quicker, which prolongs the life of the siding. i think there are other benefits but that's the main one.

    is it necessary? probably depends on your area but mostly likely not. i've never seen (or heard) this done in my area and i've been involved with the building business and building houses for about ten years now. framing with 2x6's vs 2x4's would be "better" but nobody does it (etc, etc). your shed should keep water out with sheathing and a vapro barrier.

    good luck,

    jud

  5. #5

    An architects point of view

    Hi Robert,

    Here is my take on your siding problem. Ten years ago, when I built my house, I used cypress vertical board and batten siding. Here is the system I came up with and has worked well so far...

    1. Use standard 2x4 stud framing for the wall framing. If you use a 2x3, you will have to do a lot of ripping on the table saw. The 2x4 framing should be 16" on center.

    2. Run horizontal 2x4 standards or nailers vertically between the 2x4 studs at 24" on center. These are what you will nail the vertical board siding to. If you plan to insulate the walls, you will have to cut the insulation into 24" pieces to go between the wall nailers.

    3. Use 1/2" plywood sheathing or oriented strand board sheathing. It is more commonly used instead of 3/8" plywood.

    4. Use base flashing at the base of the wall. Base flashing is a black plastic poly 18-24" wide sold at most building supply stores. Run it horizontally overlaping the slab around the perimeter of the structure.

    5. Overlap over the base flashing No. 15 or No. 30 felt building paper. I like it better than house wrap or Tyvek because it weeps water better and allows the wall system to breath better. Overlap the felt building paper a minimum of 3" with each course. The felt should overlap the lower piece so as to shed water like shingles do on a roof. I used plastic button tab nails to fasten the felt.

    6. I used 5/4" x 12" band sawn cypress for my vertical siding boards. I purchased mine from a lumber mill in south Louisiana. If you can find old growth heart cypress, it will last for hundreds of years, but it isn't easy on your wallet, and could be very hard to find. You could use most any wood. When you nail the vertical siding boards, nail them into the wall standards or nailers using a stainless steel ring shank nail or stainless steel screws. The ring shank nails won't back out with wood movement. Leave about 1/2" space between the siding boards for expansion and contraction. I used a vertical batten 5/4" x 2". The vertical batten covers the 1/2" space between the vertical siding boards. Do not nail the battens to the siding boards!!! Nail the battens in the 1/2" gap between the boards. Remember you are working with wood which moves, and the wood siding components need to move with respect to each other

    My cypress siding is going strong after 10 years and still looks great.
    Good Luck.

    Eric Commarato, AIA

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
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    Near saw dust
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    I wouldnt waste your time or $ on furring your siding out... but if you want to do it with vertical siding heres how. Frame your shed using 2x3s and sheathe with 3/4" plywood (only a little more $ and offers some real wood to screw things to inside later) and wrap with you choice of building wraps. I dont like tyvek but for this method I would use a newer style wrap instead of tar paper as the air and bugs have a little more access to it.

    Then put an 1 1/2" strip of 3/4" spruce vertically over each stud with a continuous piece horizontally at the top and under eaves. Then run your horzontal battens at 24" on center to provide nailing for the vertical siding. I think galvanized finish nails (blind or face) and PL premium would hold that siding through any storm. You could seal the bottom of the air space with a product called COR-A-VENT (cheap and easy, find on GOOGLE?).

    I have seen this method used to put a wood roof over a house that has plywood roof sheathing already and the owners didnt want to remove it.

    Your biggest source of moisture will likely be caused by wind driven rain coming through a gable vent or if you dont have one of those you might have high moisture levels due to lack of ventilation (I vote for soffit vents on one side and a small roof vent or ridge vent).

    Hope that makes sense. Good luck. Ben
    Strive for perfection...Settle for completion

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
    Location
    Waterford, MI
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    I'd go with 2x4 or 2x6 studs. On the inside, the space in between is a good place to store the long handled garden tools. I've got cross panels on mine going up about 2.5' - just high enough to stop the tools from tipping out into the main space and low enough to remove them easily.
    Use the fence Luke

  8. #8
    I'd frame it with regular 2x4s, 16" on center, just like regular construction. You might consider ship-lap on the outside, it sheds the water properly for siding.

    I built an office out of a shed, but didn't build the base shed, just added the steroilds to the inside. If I was to do it all over again, I'd frame the entire thing myself. Mine was 2x4 framing with studs 16" OC, just like normal framing. You can see what I did here. Starting on the 6th row of pics is the work I did, except for the pic of the T-collar Supports which I did to remove the cross collar ties to get more room.

    I insulated with R-13, it stays very warm with my computers during the winter. Last year I only had to use the portable propane heater twice. This is great space, I use it for my office and the 2nd half that was going to be my music study is now for hand tool work. Just laminated 2 of the legs earlier, for the workbench going in that space.

    Good luck with your project.
    --
    Life is about what your doing today, not what you did yesterday! Seize the day before it sneaks up and seizes you!

    Alan - http://www.traditionaltoolworks.com:8080/roller/aland/

  9. #9
    Thanks for all the replies.
    Sorry about the delay.
    Hi Jud, I live in Japan (sorry, I sppose I should have said that ) and I sleep while you guys play.

    Anyway thanks for the replies and now I have some food for thought.
    So I think I might change my framing members to 2x4 ( I was thinking of 2x3 to maximise interior space) and use the spacings recommended and put the horizontal standards or nailers (noggings ) between and I will then put ply sheeting over that. I will bump this up to 1/2" as suggested.

    Carl, I want to use the ply as structural bracing for typhoons. I will use anchore bolts to tie my frames to the slab. I will have to make up a box beam construction over my double doors to support the load over the opening so I need the ply for that as well. I will also think about maybe putting just a larger wooden beam like in Alan's shed over his double door space

    Thanks Alan for pictures. They are very nice, and the shed/office looks nice and comfy, too. Is that purple heart flooring?

    Thanks Doug for the idea for the cross panels to stop tools falling over. I will put a few of those in.

    Ben, thanks for the explanation of the construction. I think I will just put the siding over the ply and building wrap. This will make it easier to build also and not reduce the interior sapce as I have a fixed exterior dimension.

    And thanks Ben for the note about ventilation. I will have to think about the detail. I could put special packing under the frame so there is a ventilation gap at the bottom of the wall. Would this be recomended? Or is ventilation at the top better. I will be setting the frame at the perimeter of the slab and so the ply sheet will project just past the edge of the slab and then I was going to have the siding coming down past the slab floor level about 2" beloe the frame bottom plate.

    I want to use the hardwood siding as it fits in with the design of of garden which has a high hardwood fence. The wood I am thinking of using is call "seran ganbatu". It is little like Ipe but a little lighter (not a lot) and a little cheaper. It also gets a little darker with age were as ipe get lighter and greyer. It is supposed to have a 20 year life in contact with the ground, with no treatment. So it should give good service for the siding. I will put a protective coat over it also so to give protection and maintain looks. What I will put on it I don't know yet.



    Thankd for all the help and advice. It has been very helpful.

    Robert
    Last edited by Robert Trotter; 10-09-2006 at 9:00 AM.

  10. #10
    Trying to put pics but don't know if it will work.

    Drawing A2 Elevation and Plan V1.dxf

    updated slab and packing detail.dxf

  11. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Trotter
    Sorry about the delay.
    Hi Jud, I live in Japan (sorry, I sppose I should have said that ) and I sleep while you guys play.
    Don't be so sure of that! I have a bad habit of working through the night. Previously I was a musician, and actually learned computers in Japan, when I lived there for 5 years. Was one of the early founders of the Tokyo PC User Group that meets in Harajuku, still to this day...

    What some would call bad work habits of working through the night, seems natural to me, and even when I lived in Nishi-Shinjuku (not far from Stu's dungeon), I always felt the solitude of the night was the most condusive for me to work.
    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Trotter
    Thanks Alan for pictures. They are very nice, and the shed/office looks nice and comfy, too. Is that purple heart flooring?
    Yes, it is purple heart. Price was comprable to oak or hickory, here in the states, about $4.95/sf. It's solid 3/4", 3 1/4" wide. Was really satisfying to install, was pre-finished, and only took me 2 days to complete once I had everything dragged home. 220 bf of purple heart is not a very light load to haul back home.

    Hopefully you're outside the city, or have room where you are. My 9 tatami apartment in Japan only had a tiny patio in the back, solid concrete about 3'x10', if that big.
    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Trotter
    I want to use the hardwood siding as it fits in with the design of of garden which has a high hardwood fence. The wood I am thinking of using is call "seran ganbatu". It is little like Ipe but a little lighter (not a lot) and a little cheaper. It also gets a little darker with age were as ipe get lighter and greyer.
    That sounds like it will work out perfectly.

    If you're anywhere close to Tokyo, you should try to get together with Stu. I may be visiting Japan this year, and will definitely be trying to visit Stu when I do. Would be nice to meet you also. I often go to Kagoshima as my Father-In-Law's side of the family are all down there. My MIL's family (what is left) is out in Iberaki, but I've only been out that way a couple of times.

    Good luck with your shed! A great project for anyone to get more space, IMO.
    --
    Life is about what your doing today, not what you did yesterday! Seize the day before it sneaks up and seizes you!

    Alan - http://www.traditionaltoolworks.com:8080/roller/aland/

  12. #12

    Japan

    Hi Alan.

    Yeah, I know about the Tokyo computer user's club. I checked it out a couple of times. But now-a-days I am pretty busy with something or other and I am falling behind in knowing much about computers. I had a look in the electronics shop the other day and didn't get half of the jargon about the computers. But I understand about staying up late to get things done.

    I live in Ashiya City in Hyogo. Not so near to Tokyo.

    Robert

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Near saw dust
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    Robert- the time zone thing is really getting us here.

    When I refer to ventilation I am referring to venting the space above the ceiling and below the roof sheathing (I couldnt get your pics to work so Im not familiar with your construction). This space is easily vented if there is a flat ceiling (joists or beams of some sort that are below the roof framing) instead of a cathedral ceiling (finish material applied to the bottom of the roof rafters). Flat ceilings can be vented using a gable end louver, power vent, solar powered vent, or ridge vent installed under the ridge shingles. Venting gets harder when the space is cathedral since the air is trapped in the rafter bays by the ceiling-this is when the ridge vent is the best system.

    Air is also usually allowed to enter the house at the eaves and exit through one of the means mentioned above. This creates a natural convection (cooler air enters at the roof edge and rises through the bays and exits high carrying any moisture with it).

    Adding insulation to the mix requires that an air space be left above the insulation and below the roof sheathing to permit this air flow. If you r shed is small and has a flat ceiling you could probably bet away with a gable louver (or any other type of venting system) and no vents at the soffits as long as the insulation was kept away from the sheathing (simple, cheap product installed before the insualtion creates this space- they are call Prop-a-vent). Maybe in typhoon land an interior cover would be smart invention to keep the place dry.

    Let me know if I can help with anything else or if Ive just confused you.

    Ben
    Strive for perfection...Settle for completion

  14. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Trotter
    Hi Alan.

    Yeah, I know about the Tokyo computer user's club. I checked it out a couple of times. But now-a-days I am pretty busy with something or other and I am falling behind in knowing much about computers. I had a look in the electronics shop the other day and didn't get half of the jargon about the computers. But I understand about staying up late to get things done.
    Robert,

    It's all different people now, but I started the first BBS for the Tokyo PC User Group in my closet around mid '80s. Made some good friends, and still many folks know me over there. I was knows as the Rabbi, kind of odd that they did meet at the Tokyo Union Church, but Brett used to have me fix his computer and help him with software problems, and in return I used to go play the piano downstairs (I'm not a pianist, but like the piano anyway ).
    Quote Originally Posted by Robert Trotter
    I live in Ashiya City in Hyogo. Not so near to Tokyo.
    I'm not sure exactly where that is, I'll have to look it up on the map.

    If you do get to Tokyo, you should look Stu up, get together at his dungeon, and talk shop.

    I envy you to be outside of Tokyo. My In-Laws live in Hachioji, which is considered Tokyo somehow...I never fully understood that as it's a 1 1/2 hour ride on the train to get there from what I consider to be Tokyo!

    Do you use any bamboo in your woodworking? Amazing how fast that stuff grows, and I've seen some great stuff done with it. Stu had cut some up a while back and I was curious about it, as it looked like it could be planed and laminated up to create what is popular in the U.S. now with bamboo flooring (or make furniture with it). Down in Kagoshima I've seen it grow about 12" per day, it's amazingly quick, and you have to get them while they're young to eat, otherwise it grows too fast and gets too tough, so I'm been told. Facinating plant, IMO.
    --
    Life is about what your doing today, not what you did yesterday! Seize the day before it sneaks up and seizes you!

    Alan - http://www.traditionaltoolworks.com:8080/roller/aland/

  15. #15
    Hi Ben.

    Yeah there is a bit of a time lag.

    I will have to check out how to check out what time everyone seems to be on most of thime. I think it is when I am going off to bed. But if I am up late then I migh t b able to be a bit more in step.

    Anyway, the shed is not that big. It has a flat roof or pretty well. I have to work out the small details about the roof and flashing etc also.

    I will try to get some pics drawn up and try to post them so you and others can see a bit more clearly. I tried once but it didn't seem to work. But I read today that if you try to preview it doesn't work so maybe I will try again.

    But It might take a while to get some drawings redone so I will post agina on another thread or come back and find this one and add to it. And then I'll be able to pick your brain and get abit of yor wisdon.

    thanks for all the ideas and help.

    The shed is will basically turn into a small garden stuff end cupboard and a big tool box and work bench. i.e. I will open the doors and there the bench will be open to all. But A picture will explain things better.

    I do my work on a "workmate" I think you call it. Or where ever I can. I used to live in an apartment and did a lot of stuff out on the small balcony (small as Alan said) but most of it under cover in the hallway of the apartment building. (nice view from the 25th floor while I worked ) I made our kitchen bench and cabinets in the kitchen and dining room actually. My wife was getting a bit tired of wood and tools and stuff all over the place for a month.

    Robert

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