L-N dovetail saw

[Ken Werner]

Just thinking about buying a L-N dovetail saw. Seeking opinions about it. Up til now, I've been using a dedicated [dovetails only] Japanese pull saw with a rigid back, and find that the cut sometimes seems to wander.
Thanks.
Ken

[Alan DuBoff]

I'll offer my non-professional-hobbyist opinion. I think any of the higher end hand saws, which I group the LN in, are good quality tools. This goes for the Adria also, another darn fine saw with many happy users (I'm sure they'll chime in).

Some have said the LN is difficult to start the cut on, but I've seen ones that are difficult to start, and ones that are not. This leads me to believe that it's all in the way the teeth are filed.

Derek Cohen bought an older Independence Tool saw (same saw, but pre-dates the LN before LN bought IT), and it was unused. He sent it to Mike Wenzloff to have him re-file the teeth how he prefers them, so that it was easy to start. Somewhere, even on this site, there might be a review of it. Do a search.

I use several different saws, but some of my faves are the ones that Wenzloff & Sons made for me, I have a pair of small joinery saws, one filed rip, and one filed crosscut. These are great little saws and I like the way they feel in my hand, Mike really knows how to make a great saw, as witnessed by many satisfied customers/users of them.

Not trying to change your mind, I believe that the LN is a good quality saw, and it might or might not suit you the way it is filed from the factory, it is for many folks. They are also the most readily available and can be had at most Woodcraft stores in stock, or through mail order. Other saw makers to consider are Leif Hanson (Norse Woodsmith), and Tim Hoff, both who also make nice saws.

Whatever saw you decide on, providing it is a western saw, I would encourage you to take the time to learn how to sharpen it yourself. This will be time well spent and in the future you will be able to touch it up easily and make it good as new.

These smaller saws, or what people refer to as a dovetail saws, are good for most all stock up to 6/4 comfortably, IMO. 8/4 starts pushing the envelope for the depth of the blade on most of them (but can be done, certainly), and a larger 10"-12" saw starts feeling more comfortable in 8/4 for me, and a tad extra blade depth helps also.

With a Japanese saw, you really need to let the saw do the work, because once it starts to drift, you will have a hard time getting it back and you can't use any force on them whatsoever to overcome that. This seems to be the tendancy for most folks when they do start to drift, I know it is for me, and trying to muscle a Japanese saw back online will typically only make things worse. DAMHIKT

[Dan Moening]

I have an LN dovetail saw purchased a few years back; a couple of Leif's saws; and a rip-filed Dozuki from Woodcraft.

The LN is a bit tough to start, but simply requires a firm commitment; once started it tracks like its on rails.

I've never held a saw that fit my hands the way the Leif's do. Bloody sharp and quick cutting.

The Dozuki is a joy to use, but for me requires more concentration as I am accustomed to push-style saws. It does start quite easy and will cut a straight line as long as the initial kerf is proper.

They all cut wonderfully. Any error induced in sawing can be directly attributed to me. (read: technique). Rather than expend $100, why not concentrate on technique? You will have to relearn how to cut properly with this change in handle style anyway.

[Steve Wargo]

I have 4 LN saws. I love them all and use them a bunch. Garrett Hack cuts most of his dovetails with a cheap $10 Kunz straight handled backsaw. It's not in the tool.

[Ken Bryant]

I have two LN saws; don't like them (though I dearly love LN planes). They're hard to start, and generally hard to push. My two largish Wenzloff saws are extraordinary, and I'm going to try to get a smaller one made for dovetails.

[Derek Cohen]

......Some have said the LN is difficult to start the cut on, but I've seen ones that are difficult to start, and ones that are not. This leads me to believe that it's all in the way the teeth are filed.

Derek Cohen bought an older Independence Tool saw (same saw, but pre-dates the LN before LN bought IT), and it was unused. He sent it to Mike Wenzloff to have him re-file the teeth how he prefers them, so that it was easy to start. Somewhere, even on this site, there might be a review of it. Do a search......

I am not sure if I posted that review here, so here is a link:

http://www.wkfinetools.com/contrib/d.../fatherSon.asp

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Ken Werner]

Thanks to all for your thoughtful replies. Perhaps a Wenzloff saw should be in my future, rather than the L-N.

Ken

[Eddie Darby]

I don't own a Lie-Nielsen saw, but I have had a chance to see Rob Cosman of Lie-Nielsen Toolworks cut his dovetails ( truly amazing to watch ), and he says the saw is 90% of the battle. The saw is a rip tooth saw since most of the sawing in dovetailing is rip-cutting. He removes just a hair of set from the saw, and test cuts to see if it is going straight. If not then he goes back to removing just a hair off 1 side or the other until the matter is settled.

Lie-Nielsen were the first to re-introduce rip saws for dovetails into the market after researching what was done in the 19th Century, when handtools use was at a zenith, up til then everyone made cross-cut saws for dovetails. If you get a saw at a show I know that Rob Cosman will make sure that it is cutting straight.

If anyone has a saw that is hard to use then I would email Lie-Nielsen and see what to do.

Whatever saw you decide to get to do dovetails, make sure that it is a *RIP* saw.

[Mark Singer]

I have the LN dovetail saw along with many others....it is an excellent saw. I removed a bit of set by lightly stoning the sides....it is as good as my better older saws and it is better filed rip for dovetails

[Mike Wenzloff]

...Lie-Nielsen were the first to re-introduce rip saws for dovetails into the market after researching what was done in the 19th Century, when handtools use was at a zenith, up til then everyone made cross-cut saws for dovetails. ...

Actually, Tom LN bought out the Independence Tool's saw line. This was started by Pete Taran [Vintage Saw web site] and Patrick Leach [the source for information on Stanley planes--the SuperTool web site and old tool seller].

They made these for a few years before selling to LN, who expanded the saw offering from the DT/Carcass saws to the line you see now.

Tom makes an excellent saw that can be made more so, depending on your own sawing preferences.

Take care, Mike

[Alan DuBoff]

Thanks to all for your thoughtful replies. Perhaps a Wenzloff saw should be in my future, rather than the L-N.

My $0.02, send the LNs to Mike Wenzloff and have him straighten them up for you. I wouldn't send them back to LN, if they couldn't get them right the first time, what makes one believe they would get it right the second time.

Those are darn fine saws Ken, they just need tad of TLC to be an excellent tool. Derek posted a link to his write-up, I think when you read it there's a chance it might encourage you to send your saws to Wenzloff & Sons, or to someone else that can do that same, and knows what they're doing.

What Eddie said was true in regards to what Cosman advocates, and the LN saws out of the box are better than the majority of saws available. However, that was before we started to have more saw makers surface, and there are more options available to folks today, than there was even just a couple years ago.

Knowing what to do is half the battle. Derek has laid out out in black and white and stated it better than I will in this message, so no need to elaborate anymore.

In NorCal, the local galoots get together for a yearly BAG-A-THON. This year's BAG-A-THON was a few weeks ago. One of the long standing galoots had a wonderful Disston 8", it was an older one, pre-1880 as it had split-nuts. The tip of the lower horn on the handle was busted off. One of the other galoots (not a saw maker, just a saw aficionadio) had taken the saw and tuned it up for him several weeks prior to our gathering. It is now his favorite saw. It was a great saw, and a saw that anyone would be glad to use. Then handle felt so nice, and it was sharp. I think the handle was shellac'd as well. Moral of the story, with a little TLC any saw can be your favorite.

For anyone that has a saw they don't like, spend the time to tune it up, and if you are not familiar with doing so, give one of the sawmakers a shot at doing it for you. I think you'll be surprised that the saw you had become discouraged with, could be one of your best friends in the shop.

EDIT: I see Mike Wenzloff snuck a message in while I was typing this! I would add that I don't think LN was the folks that thought up rip teeth on a dovetail saw...they bought into the idea that Pete Taran had started. There were folks using rip teeth quite a long time before that, I would imagine...

[Chuck Stanford]

Just thinking about buying a L-N dovetail saw. Seeking opinions about it. Up til now, I've been using a dedicated [dovetails only] Japanese pull saw with a rigid back, and find that the cut sometimes seems to wander.
Thanks.
Ken

Three words: Hard To Start

It's not your technique, it's not your fault. The bleedin' thing is just hard to start.

It can be 'fixed' but I'd rather buy a Wenzloff or another maker's saw that does not have the same fussy reputation.

[Alan DuBoff]

It can be 'fixed' but I'd rather buy a Wenzloff or another maker's saw that does not have the same fussy reputation.

QFT, and I see I mixed the Kens up, it was Ken Bryant that already has the LN saws. He should send those to Mike Wenzloff.

Any saw can be corrected, and if folks have a LN and find it difficult to start, either send it to someone that can fix it for you, or tune it up yourself. Good excercise in tuning a hand saw up, the skill comes in mighty handy.

I will put myself on record as not being the best at shaping teeth from scratch, and a saw maker that has a foley could be helpful in that case. I know that Wenzloff & Sons cuts the teeth on a foley before hand filing them. The first saw I tried to shape teeth on was quite humorous...(in a sad way), but given patience and persistence, it is possible to get the teeth fairly evenly shaped. Even ugly teeth can cut well, which is surprising, but I jointed it back down and re-did it. I still won't show it to you though...<LOL!>

[Alice Frampton]

Three words: Hard To Start

It's not your technique, it's not your fault. The bleedin' thing is just hard to start.

It can be 'fixed' but I'd rather buy a Wenzloff or another maker's saw that does not have the same fussy reputation.

Ummm... it might well be technique actually. I haven't found mine hard to start at all. Not to say I wouldn't probably have gone for a Wenzloff if I was doing it again (and it had happened to be there right under my hand at the time - yeah, it was one of those purchases...)

Of course I could be a sawing genius.*

Cheers, Alf

* And everyone that knows me is rolling around laughing at about that point

[Jerry Palmer]

Since LN goes to some length concerning the small kerf of their DT saws, I have to assume (since I don't have one and don't recall seeing one ever) that the hard starting has to do with little or no rake in the teeth. If you're willing to tackle the small teeth, a simple refiling of them with a bit more rake, up to 8 degrees or so, would vastly improve the ease of starting the saw.