dust/chip collection

[John Piwaron]

I was reviewing some of what Bill Pentz has written on his website. It occurs to me that this could become very involved. And there's his apparent recommendation for using 6" tubing to connect tools to the dust collector.

It's overwhelming.

What are you using? Have many people gone the whole "Bill Pentz route" or something less than that?

What are *you* doing?

I can say that right now, I'm at the point of deciding which dust collector to try shoehorning into my micro sized shop. I actually use a shop vac with a cleanstream filter as the collection device for my planer and soon my TS. That's about it at the moment. There's more to come, but I want a sense of how far to take this. I'm a hobby woodworker building maybe 2 or 3 serious projects in a year.

[Al Willits]

John, no expert but it seems to be a rags or riches kinda deal.
Those with both the funds and room seem to go for the major DC systems and those who have less room or money go for something else.

If your like me and don't have the room to put a full blown DC system in your shop/garage/whatever, you might consider one of the portable units, I have the JDS Dust Force which works well for me, and its on wheels so I can move it around if needed, I'm also running the 4" ducts and they seem to work fine.

Most here go by the bigger is better theory, and that's fine I guess if you have the room, kinda hard though for some of us.

Good luck with your choice, it can be confusing.

Al

[Don Baer]

A shop vac won't work very well. Presently I use the 2 HP 1200 CFM from harbor freight. It costs less then $200 and does a great job of chip collection. When I build my perm shop I'll go with the pentz design.

[Jim Becker]

My main run starts at 7" (which is determined by my particular cyclone, an Onieda) and generally is 6" from the first major branch until it steps to 5" near the end. Drops are 6", 5" or 4", depending on the tool and location on the system. Your duct work needs to be matched to your dust collection system's requirements and capacities.

[Art Mulder]

It's overwhelming.

Yup, it is. People can argue passionately about it, and it is hard to argue with them about safety. (Ditto for the Sawstop, by the way)

Sounds like you have a small shop though. I work out of a basement shop and I settled on a 2HP single stage import DC. It has a decent sized fan on it. And I bought a good quality 1 micron bag for it. And I run a 4" PVC pipe about 15' down the side of my shop, and have some 4" flex hose to my major tools. I might convert to a 6" main at some point, but 6" PVC is not easy to come by.

I'm pretty satisfied at the job it does of keeping the dust out of the air.

[Matt Moore]

WARNING... WARNING.... THIS MESSAGE WILL SELF DESTRUCT IN 10 SECONDS.....

Now seriously, this can be a heated topic.

A key point that you made is that you only do 2 to 3 serious projects per year. If you do that and you are doing this in a open garage setting, then the impact of the dust is not nearly as much as a completely closed in basement shop.

There are so many variables to the issue and it can get really complicated. Most people will have some sort of dust collection and maybe an air filter and lust after something larger/better. Some are able to justify the larger/bigger solution due to either the availabiliy of funds or the amount of time they spend making dust or maybe both.

I think the biggest point is to take the dust seriously but realize you are not in your shop 40 hours a week. If I were in there that much I would definately have a full fledged system like BP recommends.

[glenn bradley]

I'd love a cyclone but in my "real" world of hobbyist woodworking I get by on a $200 Delta "chip" collector with a trash can seperator. I only task it with one machine at a time and take great caution to get the most out of my ducting that I can. The seperator puts a helluva hit on the CFM but (here comes the lazy part) I can empty the trash can a half dozen times or more before I have to clean out the DC bags.

I'm in SoCal and can work with the Garage, er . . Shop doors open almost year round so it stays pretty clear in there. In the DC world I 'strive for perfection but settle for realistic'. By that I mean realistic for me and my cash flow. Your health is well worth the investment if your working environment calls for it. Just MHO.

[Jeffrey Makiel]

This subject need not be 'overwhelming'. However, I can see your point.

One doesn't need to be an automotive designer and mechanic to drive a car. So why does one need to be a HVAC engineer and industrial hygenist to add a dust collection system for the home hobby woodshop?

If you are on a budget, as with many folks that do woodworking as a hobby, a single stage 2hp dust collector with quality bags and 6" dia duct (PVC or metal) is the simple choice. Add some simple blast gates, 4" duct branches for small machines and flex duct. Also, make some box hoods for tools that need them like miter saws or radial arm saws.

If you want added convenience and ease of maintenance, consider a remote on/off switch, or a two stage cyclone, or perhaps even electrically activated blast gates. But I view these as conveniences that can only be judged necessary by the individual's time spent in the shop, budget, and willingness to do maintenance. The only caveat I can think of are hobbyists that have drum sanders which demand a two stage system.

Just my opinion...and I've been wrong before!
-Jeff

[Christopher Kochan]

My personal approach is to use a 2hp dust collector for chip collection and helping keep my shop (garage) clean, an air cleaner to help catch little stuff that stays floating in the "shop" after I'm done, a box fan to help flush dust out of the garage while I'm working (I try to keep the door open), and a good 3m half-face respirator.

The respirator is what protects my lungs, and to be honest, even with a killer dust collection system with 5hp, 7" ducts, and my equipment modified to the max, I still don't believe I would be able to effectively catch dust with my miter saw, handheld sanders, or free hand sanding to the point where I would NOT need to wear a respirator.

Therefore I do the best I can to keep the garage clean, clean freeborn particles during and especially after I leave the shop (so it's reasonably clean the next day when I come in), and wear a respirator to do the important work (which I would wear regardless).

Effective for a good portion of the dust, and doesn't break the bank. Perfect? Not by a long shot, but I do the best I can.

Oh, and take a shower after a long day in the shop. It'll wash all the stuff that's settled on you while your working, rather than stirring it up later.

My itsy-bitsy 2 cents worth.

Best,
Christopher

[Lou Ferrarini]

John,

I, like you, were using a shop vac on my planer and quickly came to the conclusion that it was crazy trying to empty that thing 3 times a day. The planer will fill it quickly.

My solution was to go with the Jet DCK1100 (with cannister filter - highly recommended) which I piped to my tools with 4" PVC S&D pipe. It does a good job if I only open one gate at a time. If you are starting from scratch, I highly recommend you use the 6" pipe if you can get it.

Also, Don't forget an air cleaner. It will remove the small particles from the air that will usually end up in your lungs. I use the Delta, it hangs from the celing out of the way, is remote controlled and has a washable filter.

[Ted Miller]

John, Yes it will make you crazy, I have few good freinds who are "old wood guys" and we usually sit around and talk about who has the biggest jointer or what dust collection is the best, since these guys have been chipping wood for 30-40 years they have some lung problems so we discuss this topic often. Bill Pentz is with out a doubt the master when it comes to "air safety" due to his lung issues, I have learned alot from him and I noticed switching over to his ideas and I even breath better when chipping wood, yes it was not cheap to fit my small garage/shop but I do sleep better at night, I also went one step further and I vent outside, so no returning air has to be filtered to return to my work area...

[John Piwaron]

John,

Also, Don't forget an air cleaner. It will remove the small particles from the air that will usually end up in your lungs. I use the Delta, it hangs from the celing out of the way, is remote controlled and has a washable filter.

That's what I forgot to add to my original posting - the air cleaner. I do have one of them. Not the big rectangular kind most people seem to get, the smaller triangular shaped one from Delta, the AP100. The big ones simply won't fit in my space. I set it up on a timer. It runs while I'm in there and continues after I leave, shutting itself off.

[Robert Mickley]

I'm poor so mines cobbled together I do have JDS dust force which I got at an auction for $60. Scrounged some tin from a nephew and built a cyclone based on BP's plans. Ran 4 inch duct work since that was what was able to scrounge together.

It's changed some since this was taken. The bag holder is now down further, bag is on top and I have a clear plastic bag on the bottom to collect anything that gets past the cyclone. I think I messed up my air ramp since some dust does get by but it works fairly well.

Keep in mind I'm no metal worker so its kind of ugly but it gets the job done.
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/attachme...2&d=1159900525

I'm working up a design for a filter satck with a shaker to clean the filters with every night, then the bag goes away completely

[JayStPeter]

I started with a shop vac, then got a Jet DC1100, and now a big cyclone. Over the years I've increased the size of my shop and the amount of dust created. I have also been willing to spend some cash to avoid the blowing of brown boogers. That includes the DC and some Festool products for handheld use. There are plenty of hidden expenses to getting all your equipment collecting dust reasonably. To me, having to wear a mask and/or having everything covered in fine dust makes the hobby less enjoyable. I have had to put off getting other tools to improve the dust collection capabilities first. Gotta make choices with the yearly shop budget. My tool funds are allocated based on keeping the hobby enjoyable and improving my productivity during the too little shop time I get.

[Bill Pentz]

I was reviewing some of what Bill Pentz has written on his website. It occurs to me that this could become very involved. And there's his apparent recommendation for using 6" tubing to connect tools to the dust collector.

It's overwhelming.

What are you using? Have many people gone the whole "Bill Pentz route" or something less than that?

What are *you* doing?

I can say that right now, I'm at the point of deciding which dust collector to try shoehorning into my micro sized shop. I actually use a shop vac with a cleanstream filter as the collection device for my planer and soon my TS. That's about it at the moment. There's more to come, but I want a sense of how far to take this. I'm a hobby woodworker building maybe 2 or 3 serious projects in a year.

John,

We each need to look at the risks and then decide what level of dust collection is ample. Based on my personal experiences I believe most small shop woodworkers leave dust collection as one of our last priorities when protecting ourselves from fine wood dust should be one of our first. Based on my reading and study, the medical research is clear there is no safe level of wood dust exposure. Every wood dust exposure causes some measurable loss of respiratory function and exposure over time creates permanent damage and increases risk of cancer. We know that some woods are fairly toxic and some cause us to build up allergic reactions fairly quickly. I personally have a large pile of some of the nicest tools that money can buy sitting in a pile unused for the last seven years because of my own reactions. I also can tell you that finding yourself exhausted and broken out in a heavy sweat like I was yesterday from less than five minutes of wall painting is not a fun way to live. We know that over time most full time woodworkers who work in large commercial facilities protected by regular government air quality regulation and testing develop long term wood dust related medical problems, some serious like mine. That is why ACGIH came out with their five times tougher standard and later the European Union came out with their now fifty times tougher standards. I think all woodworkers should work outside with a good dust mask and jumper that they remove before returning into their homes, or they should build for themselves a good dust collection solution.

I wish installing a good fine dust collection was easier, but the reality is today you need to either spend big bucks to buy a professional system guaranteed to meet government standards, build your own, or go without. Building your own is not that hard, but does take some study and work because almost all you can buy off the shelf are “chip collection” solutions that do a great job of collecting the sawdust and chips we would otherwise sweep up with a broom. To build your own you need a multi pronged approach. I strongly recommend buying or building a good downdraft table. Likewise I think most smaller tools require us to buy a far better shop vacuum than most traditional units. Most need a heavy commercial grade unit like the big Fein 18 gallon stainless steel vacuum (or Festool or real commercial) shop vacuum that pulls a real 90” or greater pressure and will take a HEPA filter (add a Sears red-line HEPA for the Fein). We need a strong shop vacuum for our tools with smaller ports. Next you need to follow the guidelines laid out by the professional dust collection firms that provide and install the dust collection equipment used to meet government air quality standards.

These professional air engineers long ago learned that, fine airborne dust spreads so quickly that to pass the anticipated OSHA air quality regulations the fine dust must be collected at the source as it is made before it can spread then that dust needs eliminated. These firms shared what they found works for good fine dust collection and most of it applies to small shops because our larger tools are mostly identical to smaller large shop tools. What they learned for small shops is the cost to replace existing tools is mostly cost prohibitive, so the only way to get good fine dust collection at most of these older tools designs is by upgrading to hoods that contain, control, and deliver the fine dust for collection. They shared that most larger tools need about 800 CFM airflow to amply collect the dust to meet OSHA standards. That airflow climbs to about 25% more to meet the higher medical air quality standards now already adopted in the European Union. In short it takes double to triple the airflow for good fine dust collection as it does to just collect the chips unless tools are built from the ground up to totally contain the dust as it is produced. The magazine testing shows most 1.5 and 2 hp dust collectors only move ample air when wheeled between tools with minimal ducting. For shops with a full set of ducting we really need at least a 3 hp dust collector. I personally use a 1.5 hp Jet DC in that role which has been upgraded with a fine filter and 6" smooth walled flex. Because cyclones add about a third more overhead to force the air into a tight separation spiral the magazine testing results show we mostly need a bigger than 3 hp cyclone to move the needed air in shops with ducting. Because air at typical dust collection pressures is more like water and barely compresses at all, any small port, duct, hose, roughness, or sharp bends will severely limit airflow similar to closing a water valve. Their tables show that all 6” duct for the 800 CFM systems is appropriate and 7” is needed for the 1000 CFM systems unless we want to step up to oversized motors and blowers that generate higher than normal pressures. They found getting rid of the fine dust requires separating off the larger chips and sawdust, and then either venting the remaining fine dust outside or returning the air after filtering through fine filters. Because of the high airflows and dust levels typical with woodworking operations they found that in all but the most extreme climates it most cost effective to use a cyclone to separate off the heavier sawdust and chips then blow the fine dust away outside. That let them continue to use existing cyclones and dust collectors already designed to freely pass the 30-micron and smaller particles. In instances where climate or local requirements required filtering the air, they developed and recommended staged separation and filtering systems that took the fine dust laden air normally exhausted outside then cleaned it using fine filters effective down to about 2-micron sized particles.

Sounds easy, but it is work, painful to change your tools, takes time and is often expensive. I think it is worth it which is why I have spent so much time sharing on my web pages.

bill