So, what's the trick for black lacquer?

[Dennis Peacock]

Greetings,

I'm working on a computer desk, seems like I've been at this desk forever. I'm down to finishing the top of this desk. Customer wants a black lacquer finish on it. I have 4 pieces to Ash to inlay in the top (without color to them of course), needless to say that I have to get the top "black" and then do the inlay pieces and then do the final lacquer coats with a clear gloss lacquer, THEN do the rub out. I've never done this type of finish and haven't been able to locate a black lacquer locally. I was told I could use acrylic black gloss paint, paint the plywood top with it, sand it flat, do the inlay and then topcoat with clear gloss and rub out.

So far, I have 3 coats of gloss black paint on the top and I'm still seeing wood grain in the finish.

How is this normally done? I've searched the web for any hints about how to do this finish, but have yet to find anything at all.

Anybody here have any experience with this type finish? I have Pumice and Rottenstone with felt blocks for the rub out process, but I've never done this either. If I can get this done successfully, I'll post a How-To so others won't have to go through what I'm going through.

[Jason Roehl]

Dennis, what are you painting black--the plywood? If so, what species is the veneer on it?

[Jim Becker]

Dennis...you really need to test whether putting lacquer over your acrylic is going to work, if you mean solvent-based lacquer. You don't want to go to all that work, only to have the nice black material "bubble up" with a reaction from the lacquer thinner/solvent. (I also hope that by "acrylic" you mean just that, not "acrylic latex" paint) So do a test piece first. Or...use a water borne product like Target USL (also acrylic) or similar over the black acrylic. BTW, Target carries USL in matt black (and white) and they work really well for doing the type of finish you are working with. Build your finish and then top coat with the clear in the sheen you desire. Rub out after full curing in about a month or so, just like NC lacquer. My kitchen cabinets were done this way using the Target matte white topcoated with satin clear.

If you really want "smooth" with no grain projection, were it me, after sealing the wood surface, I'd use a paste wood filler (designed for grain filling) before proceding with the black finish.

[John Miliunas]

Dennis, Jim is spot on with his info! If you're going to use lac on top of anything, test it first. I don't mean to scare you but, I remember a friend of mine shot a Jeep body (without listening to me! ) w/lac after just scuffing up the previously painted surface. Previous surface was an enamel. Came into the shop the next day and ALL the paint was literally laying on the floor! And yes, if the grain is still "popping" through, you should consider re-sanding and using grain filler first. Get it baby-butt smooth and then hit your color coat and clear.

OTOH, if you're already too far committed to the finish, re-coat until no more grain comes through and hit the clear coat with poly. That won't interact with the base coat. Contrary to "popular" belief, you can rub out poly, as well, albeit, the cure time for it is significantly longer than lac. On something like that, I wouldn't try rubbing out poly for, at least, one month!

[Jim Becker]

Why use poly, John? There are so many fine varnish products that don't contain polyurethane resins. Pratt and Lambert # 38, for example, is a soya oil based product that goes on "light" (in color) and is nearly as "durable" as poly. And it rubs out easier, too. Same goes for other alkyd or phenolic resin varnishes. Many polys are a little "cloudy" too...and I don't think that Dennis wants that look over the black base.

[Dennis Peacock]

OK, ok....I guess I'm in trouble then. I put down latex paint. I have a sample board that I've been testing with and it hasn't bubbled up anywhere. Nice, flat, and smooth.

Jim,
I can't get any WB lac around here and I can't afford to buy any more finish and pay shipping. This project has already killed me in more than one way.

Jason, It's Birch plywood, 3/4". One part is 3' by 8' and the other top is 3' by 5' so this is NOT a small desktop.

I guess I'll have to sand it all down again and start over unless I hear differently from anyone here.

[Chris Barton]

Hi Dennis,

I have some friends that did black lac during it's hey-day in the early 80's as a way to make a go out of their cabinet shop (and they regretted it). Using a black paintable substrate is what they did also but, they simply went to an auto paint supply and had them mix a black lac finish. They would spray on auto body primer first, then the black lac, then some clear gloss lac and finally rub it our with some polishing compound. Their piece looked great but, in essence, they were having to paint wood like you would paint a car. Thier biggest problem was what you have noticed about the grain. They never really solved that problem and they were greatful once the black lacquer craze was over.

[John Miliunas]

Why use poly, John?

Ahhh, because it's so easily available? No doubt, there are alternatives and, as you mention, most probably more suitable ones, at that. I prefer pre-cat lac but, it sounds as though Dennis is in a bit of a bind here and poly may have been the most expedient solution. You're right about the "cloudy" look, though once it's rubbed out, it's really not that bad at all. Just looking at options....

[Jim Becker]

Dennis, try the Minwax water borne poly (blueish can). I've put it over latex. It will work (and sprays nicely with out reduction) if you find that there is a problem with the lacquer over the latex paint. Do keep in mind that you're putting a hard finish over a soft finish...durablity will be a potential issue.

[Dennis Peacock]

Ok, I'm screwed.

Today is remove the paint day. I'm also calling around for options. I only have 2 paint stores locally. Benjamin-Moore and Sherwin-Williams. I'll know more later today. (I hope).

[John Miliunas]

Ok, I'm screwed.

Today is remove the paint day. I'm also calling around for options. I only have 2 paint stores locally. Benjamin-Moore and Sherwin-Williams. I'll know more later today. (I hope).

Not sure about Benjamin-Moore but, we used to squirt a LOT of S-W at a shop I worked at in a past life. However, all our wood was just stained or, in some cases, "ebonized" and we just shot pre-cat over it. I do know that S-W always offered a LOT of solutions so, that may be your best bet locally. Best of luck with that, buddy!

[Jim Becker]

Dennis, SW has an excellent product that has been mentioned in this forum a number of times by our resident "painter pros". It's water borne, but dries hard. Pro-something-or-another...and doesn't have the negative attributes of latex paint for finishing furniture, cabinets and shelving.

[Dennis Peacock]

OK...here's the deal......

Went to SW and talked with them.
Me: Howdy, I'm looking for Gloss Lacquer
Them: Uh.....we don't carry Lacquer
Me: I'm tring to reproduce a black lacquer finish on a desk.
Them: How about this "lacquer paint"?
Me: Hum, that's just standard Enamel Black paint.
Them: Well, yea, but it sure dries fast.
Me: Sorry, but I've already screwed this up and I'm looking for a way to fix it.
Them: We're sorry sir but we don't carry any lacquer.
Me: I recently read about SW's new CAB Acrylic Lacquer.
Them: (looking at me like a calf looking at a new gate)
Me: Well, can you get me a price on that and tell me if you have it?
Them: I know we don't have it in stock, the price is $26.95 per gallon. We can order it for you but you'll have to purchase an entire CASE of the CAB Lacquer AND you'll have to pre-coat with our Vinyl Sealer, we don't stock that either and you'll have to buy an entire CASE. That will bring your purchase to around $300 for the special order finishes.
Me: What about tinting the CAB Lacquer so I can do the black lacquer finish?
Them: We can't tint the lacquer and they said that we can NOT tint it.
Me: OK....so the CAB lacquer is out, besides that, I don't need to spend $300 on a finish schedule that I can't use anyway. I appreciate your help any way....pause....oh, BTW, do you carry Denatured Alcohol?
Them: Why yes we do.
Me: (Glowing with a gentle smile about this time) GREAT!! Can I go ahead and get a 5 gallon can of DNA while I'm here?
Them: Sorry sir, but we only have it in QUARTS.
Me: OK, thanks any way. (and I quickly exit the store)

Back in the car I think, hey, I have to pass by Benjamin-Moore any way, I know I already checked their web site and they don't carry any lacquer, but I'll stop by there....just-in-case.
Pull up into the parking lot of the small but neat looking BM paint store. I walk in and am promptly greeted by TWO associates in the store.
Me: Howdy, I'm wondering if you happen to carry any Lacquer?
BM-Them: YUP....Shore-do.
Me:
Me: Do you have it in Gloss?
BM-Them: Yup, shore-do.
Me: Do you happen to have.....(I swallow hard out of the pending fear of an answer of no)......Gloss Black Lacquer?
BM-Them: Yessir we do. We have to carry it for a local boat company that uses it for their consoles and such. How many gallons do you want?
Me: (You could have blown me over with a feather about now.) - Uh, how about 2 gallons of Gloss Black Lacquer.
BM-Them: Awrighty sir....what else can I do for you?
Me: Do you happen to have Clear Gloss Lacquer?
BM-Them: Yessir, shore-do. How many gallons you want?
Me: (Repeat same emotions as I reflected with the Black Gloss Lacquer) How about I take 1 gallon for now and if I need another I will come back and pick up another?
BM-Them: Shore-thang. We carry it all the time, just drop by when you are ready for more.....Will that be all for ya today?
Me: Yessir, I believe that will be it for today.
BM-Them: Ok sir, that'll be $73.47 including tax.
Me: (Catch me Margaret, I think I'm about to faint....remembering the previous $300 at SW to get a clear lacquer finish). Sounds good sir. Thank you!!!
BM-Them: Thank you sir and ya'll come back when you need something else.
Me: (Walking out of the store with 3 gallons of lacquer, 2 of witch are Gloss Black Lacquer) and with a smile of my face and excitement in my heart, I say Thank You and I WILL be back when I need more.

Note: Now all I gotta do is get all that black paint off the plywood and start with the "black lacquer".

[Jeff Jewitt]

Dennis,

Are you going to paint it black, then do the inlays, then clear-coat? If so it's a lot easier to just mask of the finished inlays, paint black, then clear coat. Since you're working with lacquer the ridge that you get from the taping disappears.

[Jim Becker]

Thanks for that tip, Jeff...it makes a lot of sense!