Accurate cabinet tool, for square...

[Mike Holbrook]

I am about to start making cabinets. I know how big a problem I can create by not building things square. I also know that sides of cabinets neeed to be parallel.

Festool makes an Angle Unit that will even attach to my fences. It costs $65 and I have no idea how accurate it is for how long. I have a better fence on order with Bob which may be very accurate but I am betting it will have to be calibrated on occasion.

I know my Festool table and Angle Guide can be made very accurate. However, I am aware that there is some wobble in many fences, even between the time the angle is set on the gauge and things get locked down. A popular solution seems to be making a jig out of some stable material (like MDF or several pieces of carefully finished glued up wood) that can be used to lock things in square. But then, how do I make sure that my jig is square, when the reason I am building it is, I may not have a dead on way to assure something is square.

I have a sliding square, which sems to wable. I have multiple metal builders squares, but I doubt those things are all that accurate. I have an old 6" Engineer's square which should be very accurate but is to short and the blade is to thin to line up on.

Maybe I just need a larger enginer's square but it will only check for square. I wonder about other angles. Can I assume that once I calibrate a fence gauge for square that the rest of the settings on those little dials will be dead on?

How much help would a Machinist's Protractor or Starret's Digital solution be? Am I just looking at this problem from to many angles?

http://www.woodcraft.com/family.aspx?familyid=4438

http://www.amazon.com/Starrett-505A-.../dp/B0000DCBLW

[Kyle Kraft]

Hi Mike,

I don't know exactly what your'e fishin' for but I just measure the diagonals to achieve square. You can use an adjustable "stick" to compare diagonals without using a tape also.

[Cliff Rohrabacher]

Festool makes an Angle Unit that will even attach to my fences. It costs $65 and I have no idea how accurate it is for how long.

FesterTool has a rep for pretty good stuff.

fence on order with Bob which may be very accurate but I am betting it will have to be calibrated on occasion.

That is often part of the game.

how do I make sure that my jig is square, when the reason I am building it is, I may not have a dead on way to assure something is square.

You build the sled to use both of the slots in your saw table. Between them you get less slop and a tighter movement of the sled across the table.

I have a sliding square, which sems to wable.

Throw it away. It is of no value. Keep the scale for scribing lines but toss the square head.

I have multiple metal builders squares, but I doubt those things are all that accurate.

They can be. Use the trick of scribing a line and then flip the square to see if it is identical. If you want to "fix it you can use a happer and a flat punch to swage the metal pushing one leg in or out. This of course means thast you are limited top trusting only the inner or outer for square.

I have an old 6" Engineer's square which should be very accurate but is to short and the blade is to thin to line up on.

Flea Bay may be your friend.
Get a Starret or Mitutoyo

Can I assume that once I calibrate a fence gauge for square that the rest of the settings on those little dials will be dead on?

If you were using a Felder or Altendorf or Martin saw yes otherwise no.
A Martin costs about $24-Grand.

How much help would a Machinist's Protractor or Starret's Digital solution be?

They are rather nice so too the electrical read out models I am old school preferring the mechanical units. The one you linkes to is quite nice.

Am I just looking at this problem from to many angles?

Maybe. Why not just start doing it and learn as you go?

[Mike Holbrook]

I am about to build a fairly large number of cabinets using some of the techniques developed for "european" style cabinets. The construction, as I understand it, is not that hard except for the requirement to build to pretty exacting specs.

The Festool table is great for building this type cabinet, but it is made to be portable, therefore the fence is not made of stiff heavy material. It is fairly easy to wally it a degree or two. I discovered this the first time I played with the table. Once locked in position even the stock fence is very accurate, but the user can end up moving the fence off the mark during the process of securing it.

Several of the Festool demo sights show methods for achieving a level of accuracy that most peole would expect to only be attainable with a table saw. Great accuracy is achievable if one has a method for calibrating the fence to that degree and then locking it in. I would like to work to the higher degree of accuracy I know my new tools can achieve. I am just trying to locate the easiest path to those results.

Many people upgrade the fence and mitre gauge of their table saw for the same reasons. I suspect that many use some sort of tool to calibrate their table saw fence too.

[Dave Falkenstein]

Mike - Have you read Jerry Work's manual titled "Getting the most From the MFT Multifunction Table"? Available here:

http://www.festoolusa.com/woodworking.aspx

Jerry, and a number of MFT users, like a big steel square made by Enco. Or you could make your own setup square for the MFT from a piece of 3/4" MDF and cut it using the 3-4-5 rule for right triangles.

Also note Jerry Work's method for insuring square glueups using the MFT and a shop-made square corner. Quite cool.

[Mike Holbrook]

Dave-
Yes, I have read Jerry and John Lucas's great how toos on the Festool equipment. I believe the square you mention is similar too or the same one Robert Blaustein suggested and gave me a link too.

I just saw the Machinist's and Starret Protractors when looking at other large squares and was trying to decide whether or not something like that might provide more help or not. One of the first things I want to do is make some folding saw horses from plans Robert sent me. I tried to make those saw horses once before but had a bad copy of the plans and my mitre saw (even at 12 ") was not long enough to cut those long angels. The long angled cuts on the 2x4s should be easy for the Festool table and saw if I can mark the angel on the 2x4s correctly. I tried to find an easy to use protractor when I first attempted those saw horses and was baffled with the apparent shortage of reliable instruments.

I kinda liked that Machinst's Protractor at Woodcraft (see above) and was thinking about getting one of those instead of a large square. It costs about the same. I found other posts where SMC members mentioned using their Machinist Protractors, but other than the one offered by Woodcraft my search on the internet for other posibly larger models turned up pretty empty. It just seemed kinda weird to me that it was so hard to find a Machinist Protractor appropriate for woodworkers when squares are available at just about any woodworking store. I assume the reason is many people do not use them.

Cliff-
"Why not just start doing it and learn as you go?"

Because its a virgin and I am afraid to mess it up..... I was thinking about the LA650 Angle Unit Bob Marino was sending me and I was not sure I wanted to spend too much time with the angle unit/fence that came with the table. Bob Marino sent the new LA650 express mail without even being asked, it just arrived today. I will add my praise to everyone elses for the great service Bob provides. I have been trying to get a certain 15 yr. old young man interested in helping set up the new tools but so far he isn't taking the bait . Christmas parties the end of the week have been messing with my schedule, baaaa humbug I want to make saw dust.

[Norman Hitt]

I use "Some" Drafting Triangles to set up tools, fences and jigs, and Other Drafting triangles just to check the accuracy of my other measuring squares & tools. Cost effective, YES........Accurate, YES, and if you do happen break one somehow, it don't hurt nearly as much as it would if you dropped your "Starrett".

[Dave Falkenstein]

Dave-
Yes, I have read Jerry and John Lucas's great how toos on the Festool equipment. I believe the square you mention is similar too or the same one Robert Blaustein suggested and gave me a link too....

Mike - I find that I do not use the MFT for angled cuts. The angle unit is simply not accurate enough and repeatable for miter angles. My MFT is set up for square cuts and stays that way for months at a time. So setup for me is not a big issue - I get it square, make a test cut to be sure my setup is good, and leave it alone.

[Mike Holbrook]

I have some specific projects I am working on that require cutting angles. One is the saw horses I mentioned above. The other is cutting plastic/rubber floor tiles to complete a new floor for the garage, both entail cuts that are too long for my mitre saw. I have done the plastic/rubber lock together flooring on my old Inca band saw in the past. I know the Festool table & saw can cut them more accurately than the band saw. We will also do the work out room floor in a similar material, part or all of the shop.... Believe it or not the walls are not all square, then there is the sheet rock that is not straight. It becomes necessary to custom cut the pieces at the edges to insure that they are close enough to the wall to be coverd by the base board.

Bob Marino sent me a second fence, LA650, to try out. I am thinking about using both fences together. The second fence would be at the rear of the table, set up square to the normal fence. In that positon it can keep things square just like an MDF zig, but can also slide along the length of the standard fence acting as a length stop. The two fences should improve my ability to keep sides square/parallel, improve set up speed and give me a more accurate way to cut angles.

I think I am going to order the Starett Protractor too: http://www.amazon.com/Starrett-505A-.../dp/B0000DCBLW

I looked at both Protractors at the local Woodcraft store yesterday. The Starett tool is: easier to read, tougher and the thick sides will work better to judge square on my raised guide rail. With the protractor and my fence system I believe I can duplicate or improve on the accuracy of my mitre saw. Set ups should be easy/verifiable and I will have the greater capacity required for my specific jobs.

[Al Willits]

Probably missing what he's asking, but what about the L shaped things you can buy at woodcraft/rockler/? that you clamp in place, are they accurate enough to keep the cabinet square?

Al

[Mike Holbrook]

Al,
It is just that the Festool saw and table (with guide) are capable of doing the job of a great many other tools including a mitre saw.

It kinda boils down to how accurately one sets up for the cut. The devices you mention can not clamp boards square that are not cut to fit square. I am trying to cut the most precise angles (including 90) I can.

[Al Willits]

Sorry, missed the part where you wanted to cut them straight, that's also a part of my learning curve, for smaller pieces I'm thinking a TS sled that's accurate should work, still having a bit of trouble with the bigger pieces though.
But getting closer, as I eliminate the wrong ways to do it...
Al