The Sawstop debate rages on

[Tim Wagner]

This all reminds me of the time i was with my grandfather while he was cutting some wood. Somehow the peice kicked back and shot directly behind where he was standing. he just had a cut in his thumb from the wood ripping out of his hand, but he was lucky he came out with just that. ever since that day I always stood to the side a bit when using a TS. this is a good thread. great find also kevin.

[Rob Blaustein]

The importance of a riving knife: perhaps as important as as any safety device on any saw.
I recently heard of an industrial woodworking accident/incident that occured about a year ago. The incident/accident was the result of a kickback. I researched/investigated the incident to make sure I had the facts correct. The accident occured in a large well equiped manufacturing plant that produces custom and standard molding.
The shop accident occured when a piece of wood kicked back from a stationary saw with a twelve inch rip blade. The wood piece fractured off the original stock and shot back. The projectile, with the combined speed and mass, shot into the female operator at the waist above the pelvic hip bone like a spear...

This same saw on separate occasion involving kickback sent a blunt ended broom handle size piece of wood through and out the other side of a box bin for cut of scrap pieces. It went through two sides of the bin. That is two pieces of 3/4" fir plywood...

I bought a Sawstop table saw because of its riving knife and how well it works in tandem with the saw blade. That was the one piece of advice my retired friend gave me when I went to a woodworking trade show on the west coast. Find a saw that has a riving knife and or splitter that is not cumbersome or a burden to use.
The young women lived

Do you know if the saw at least had a splitter in place? Although I understand the difference between a riving knife and a splitter, I've always wondered what the difference was from a practical perspective. That is, are there kickbacks that have occurred with a splitter that a riving knife would have prevented? My impression is that the difference between the two is incremental and wouldn't be the selling point compared to the overall quality and the brake mechanism.

[Steven Wilson]

Ok, take some foam board and push it into the back of the blade. With a splitter (NA table saw) you will get kickback, with a properly set up riving knife you won't. With a riving knife the mechanism, when properly setup, is very very close to the blade. On a normal table saw with a splitter the splitter mechanism is quite far away from the blade which will allow the rear teeth to grab wood. The design of a normal table saw doesn't allow for a splitter mechanism to get close enough to the blade. The brake mechanism does nothing to prevent or deter kickback. Just having the brake alone would still allow you to be severly injured by a kickback. It's the riving knife on the sawstop that prevents most of the injuries.

[Bryan Rocker]

It is good to see people being innovative and coming up with good ways to help keep us from hurting ourselves. Having said that, as a hobbyist I can tell you $2900 is out of my reach. When it came time to buy a replacement saw I looked hard at my checkbook and saw quality. My original short list included the Sears 22124 and the Grizz 1023. Then finances improved slightly combined with a good sale on the Delta X5 and I know have an X5 in my garage for $1400. There is no way I could have swung the $2900. Do I think the technology is good, Yes. It would be a great thing to see all the saw makers come up with retro kits to include this technology.

Good technology is no replacement for paying attention to what you are doing. So many accidents are caused by us forgetting the little details.....

[Per Swenson]

I just had a thought.

I know its tough.

Most high quality table saws outlive their owners and become

either generational or sold. They don't end up in the scrap yard.

So my thought....I know, does it hurt?

Is that if you look at the price of a saw and its long term return

for you, your son or daughter, or some guy at a auction is peanuts

compared to any injury incurred by anyone.

Remember the body part you save may not be your own.

Per

[Rob Bourgeois]

Great post Per.


So I should buy high quality tools on my sons birthday.

[Per Swenson]

Thanks Rob,

I am now of the opinion we should only buy high quality tools.

And some say, I just simply can't afford it.

If you are going to keep and use it for any length of time,

I don't think you can afford not to.

Per

[Dennis Peacock]

Thanks Rob,

I am now of the opinion we should only buy high quality tools.

And some say, I just simply can't afford it.

If you are going to keep and use it for any length of time,

I don't think you can afford not to.

Per

Very well stated Per. But I do remember the days when I couldn't hardly afford a simple measuring tape, much less a quality machine to work with. But looking back, I've lost a LOT of money over the years with the old buy, sell, buy dealings to get better equipment and tools as time progressed.

If I only knew then....what I know now.

[Bryan Rocker]

Thanks Rob,

I am now of the opinion we should only buy high quality tools.

And some say, I just simply can't afford it.

If you are going to keep and use it for any length of time,

I don't think you can afford not to.

Per

By your standard 90 percent of hobbyist would never pick up woodworking because they could never afford it. There are hundred different ways you can look at it but the bottom line is this, not everybody has the finances to spend that kind of money. Attitudes like this are supported by people who are well to do and consider $3K purchases pocket change, not like the rest of us grunts who have to budget are money to make large purchases in the $1K range let alone the $3K range.

Just remember this ALL mechanical things can fail. There is NO guarentee that the one time YOU are unlucky enough to hit the saw blade that it will work. Just having the technology is NO replacment for a person paying attention to their surroundings and ensuring they operate dangerous machinery in a safe manor.

[Per Swenson]

Bryan,

What I said was, "I am now of the opinion"

Which if you were accustomed to my brief writing style,

would imply that I once thought exactly as you do.

Except, quite a few years of experience later, I have learned

by making the same purchasing mistakes as everybody else,

that I didn't use my best judgment.

And Bryan, that is why I am here today.

Not to read my own words in print , practice debating skills,

or pen a new comedy routine.

I come here to share my experience so a hobbiest or Professional

woodworker can make a better informed decision.

I am by no means well to do, why just today we had to eat the ducks.

I hope this helps you better understand where I am coming from.

Per

[Peter Melanson]

I recently bought my Sawstop last week. I do agree the price is steeper than what I preffered and Mr. Gass's approach may not have been the best tactically. There are 2 thing I really considered when buying my first "real" table saw having not used one for many,many years. I was ready to purchase a new Steel City Tools Table saw comaparable in HP and from what I have investigagted the quality for a great price with the rebates and sales over Christmas. Then I started thinking about the safety factor especially since I need my fingers for my job. I had a contractor friend go with me to look at the Steel city and he thought they were great. I also noticed him looking a the SS "very hard". The next week I was in my local WC store and noticed a customer come in with his hand bandaged. I asked one of the employees what happened, he told me that he injured his hand on a table saw but did not lose it. He also mentioned that the guy has been a WW for a long and a judge in town. When I got home I called my contractor buddy and told him I was thinking about the SS and was I crazy, since I over analyze things, and is it worth the extra cash. He said absolutely, he also told me he was look for a new saw and he was getting the SS in the near future. He also told me that he has been doing this for 20 years and does know anyone in the "field" that hasn't had an accident, they may not have lost a finger but there was an injury, and statistically the more you use a table saw the greater the odds of something happening (even if you are the safest person in the world). Check mark number one. So of course I research the SS inside and out for quality since I am a big believer in buying quality equipment. I have found many articles that have recently been published rating the SS exceptionally good which was a plus for me. In talking with my contractor friend again he basically said that the difference between the top 5 - 10 saws out there is very minor and they will all do a great job.
So my second consideration the price: In my mind the safety factor and quality are worth the price for "my peace of mind" (not to mention my wife's) and the quality of what I am getting the SS was the one for me. Yes I did have to wait 2 more months to save the money (after saving for a year already) and I am very happy I waited and bought the SS. Just my thoughts!!!

[Bill Lantry]

"I am by no means well to do, why just today we had to eat the ducks."

Good one, Per... Ducks don't ski very well, anyway... Hope they were tasty...

I see both sides of this. It's clearly a good idea, especially when combined with a riving knife. Some people can afford the 4k, but not all of us. Most of us have to make do, cobble together, etc. That's why I can't wait for that contractor version to come out. I already have the mods worked out. But just today, I checked the site again, and it still says "coming soon"!

Dang! What's taking so long? Don't they want my money?

Thanks,

Bill

[Tim Wagner]

well I may get bashed but... If you use push blocks like were supposed to, would this not be an issue?

[Al Willits]

Tim, I'd think if you used the saw or any tools like there suppose to, it wouldn't be a issue, its the times you don't,that the sawstop or any safety device can help.

I you can afford to buy all the festool/sawstop/high end tools and have to eat ducks, maybe your priorities are a bit different than most of us who consider life first, then hobby's.
So to say because you can do it, so should we,is bs.

Me thinks some forget that woodworking is a hobby to some, and we do just fine with the B squad tools.


Al....who likes being on the B squad, least for woodworking...

[Steven Wilson]

Tim, it's still an issue. You can get injured in a number of ways, amputation is just one of them. IMNHO the riving knife is the single most useful safety feature of the sawstop and push blocks don't take the place of what a riving knife provides.