Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 16

Thread: 3M Blue Masking Tape - Don't make my mistake

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Chappell Hill, Texas
    Posts
    4,741

    Unhappy 3M Blue Masking Tape - Don't make my mistake

    I have some poplar panels that I need to color match with some ugly veneer. They are two columns of a modular entertainment center that got broken during a move. The original columns are 1 9/16" thick, 18" wide and 7'+ long particle board with a somewhat striped maple-ish plastic veneer.

    I decided to use solid poplar for the replacements, and use a wood toner to match the color of the stripes. As you can see in the second picture, I was fairly successful. However, as you can se in the first picture, a close-up, when I used the blue Scoth Masking tape (#2090) to mask off the lighter areas, and the medium colored areas, it left a significant amount of residue on the wood that both attracted, in some areas and repelled in other areas, a LOT of toner, and left significant bumps after the first coat of lacquer. This is evident by the dark dots all along where the tape lines were. I did not see any of the residue until the first coat of lacquer.

    So, I promptly got on the phone with 3M to describe my woes. They should be calling me back today with a proper product recommendation.

    So, yesterday afternoon, 3rd picture, I sanded them back to bare wood again. Twice the work for the same amount of money. How fun.

    Todd.
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by Todd Burch; 12-10-2003 at 8:39 AM.

  2. #2
    Ich! Not a fun problem.
    But, just hink about how smooth those panels are going to be!
    I use that blue tape quite a bit, and so far no problems, but I appreciate hearing of your woes so I can think about that in the future.
    Let us know what 3M has to say for themselves!
    "Because There Is Always More To Learn"

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Dallas, Tx.
    Posts
    1,337

    Todd, my man...

    ....you're goin' to learn the hard way. I did. Tape aint tape. So many on the market and few do the job well. Please post what the suits at 3-M tell ya'. Can't wait for their answer. Wish you'd ask why 2" tape aint 2". It says, "use as 2" ". It is cut a few micrometers under. Never understood this. Good luck.
    Phil in Big D
    The only difference between a taxidermist and the taxman, is that the taxidermist leaves the skin. Mark Twain

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Phil PhelpsWish
    you'd ask why 2" tape aint 2". It says, "use as 2" ". It is cut a few micrometers under. Never understood this. Good luck.
    I suspect their reasoning is much like the 23/32" 3/4" plywood we buy. Money and our willingness to settle for less without some kind of uprising.
    Last edited by Ken Salisbury; 12-12-2003 at 8:43 AM.
    "Because There Is Always More To Learn"

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Thibodaux, La.
    Posts
    242
    Todd, how long was the tape on the wood?
    Lynn
    Lynn J. Sonier

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Dallas, Tx
    Posts
    10

    similar experience

    i had a similar experience with the same blue tape. i used some around some joints to catch glue squeeze-out. when i was running a tack cloth over the pieces prior to putting on the first coat of stain i noticed the residue. it was a significant amount everywhere to tape had been.

    this was from a new roll of tape, and the tape was on the wood for less than an two hours.

    i've used the stuff before without issue - maybe there's a bad batch in circulation or something?

    rob sukach
    dallas, tx

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Kutztown PA
    Posts
    1,255
    Todd, I feel your pain. I try to stay away from work like this as much as possible. When people ask me if I do repair work, I tell them only for my wife and mother, and sometimes not even them! I have experienced the agony of the margin buster though.

    By the way, what is that green and black thing you are using to sand with?

    Bill

  8. #8

    Hi Todd

    I'm not sure of the cause of your problem Todd, but I'll take a stab or two. I've always had good luck using the 3M blue tape. Perhaps you either got a bad batch or there was some sort of reaction. Masking tapes are made with a medium to low strength synthetic rubber based adhesive. These materials are relatively high in solvent weight and when the solvent is disolved or evaporates over time the adhesive dries and turns hard and eventually powdery (not in your case). If you used any solvent which reacts with the adhesive or breaks it down, this could have caused your problem by turning the adhesive into a tacky mess and putting some of the solvent/ adhesive mixture into the pores of the wood.

    Rubber based adhesives are overall a poor choice for most uses because of poor long term aging (drying to dust), lower strength than acrylics, and lower heat and cold resistance. They are used primarily for quick tack and their extremely low cost to produce. For most uses an acrylic based adhesive is a better choice. Unfortunately, the removable/repositionable adhesive like the post-it note adhesives and their stronger relatives are relatively expensive when compared to the low price of the rubber based stuff.
    Dave Anderson

    Chester, NH

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Chappell Hill, Texas
    Posts
    4,741
    Lynn, the blue masing tape was on the wood no longer than 45 minutes at the most. It never had direct sunlight.

    Bill, that is a Festool ES 150/3 Random Orbit Sander! Funny you should ask! Compared to my Porter Cable PC333VS sanders, it is VERY easy to handle. When my PC was new, it was very smooth, for about a week. Ever since, is vibrates quite a bit. The Festool had quite a bit of vibration for the first couple hours. Now, it is smooth. Granted, it is still a vibrating sander, and no-way no-how would it ever pass a nickel test, but it is easy on the hand and arm and will be my sander of choice. I'll make another post later when I have time to describe it more fully.

    I got a reply from 3M. Their response, in a nutshell, was twofold:

    First, they said that the blue tape, #2090, the tape I used, is clearly marked that it is not suitable for lacquer. (I must have missed that on the clear cellophane wrapper, or on the inside of the cardboard core...)

    Second, they said that I should be using their product #2050, which is called Painter's Masking Tape, is crepe in color, and is a bit more tacky than the blue tape. It's good for 3 days once applied.

    The 3M lab guy suggested that the acrylic adhesive on the blue tape reacted with the solvents I uwas using. He mentioned that the rubber adhesive on the Painter's masking tape would not react with the lacquer. (Dave, you had the acrylic/rubber description 180° - but I'm still impressed!)

    Here is their full response:

    "Judging by the email [and pictures I sent them], I think the problem here was a reaction between a lacquer product and the acrylic adhesive on the 2090. It does clearly say not to use 2090 with lacquers. I would suggest using 2050 because it is a medium adhesion tape that will not react with the lacquer being used. He [meaning yours truly] will have to test the tape for this application, I would be careful to be sure the surface he is taping onto is not "fresh" or "delicate" in any way. The 2050 will be slightly higher in adhesion compared to the 2090."

    I would have gladly spent $5, or even $10 a roll on tape that would not have failed...

    Todd.

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Farmington, AR
    Posts
    1,465
    Todd, I am not recommending it for this application, as I have no experience with it with lacquer.

    A while back I was trying to mask over some panels that were shellac finished. I needed to shellac some edges that I couldn't do before glue up. The blue tape "leaked" shellac (1-2# cut) under it, which as you know is a no no, no? It was suggested on a forum (the Pond I believe) to use the green tape. If memory serves, the adhesion is higher. And I didn't read the label for compatibility! But it did work very well without damaging the freshly dried shellac.

    Like I say, I haven't tried it in an application like yours.

    I'm sure 3M has the "better idea".

    David

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Chappell Hill, Texas
    Posts
    4,741
    David, the green masking tape, #2060, is designed for using ON lacquer (for sticking TO lacquer). I'm not aware of its adhesive's resistance to the solvents in lacquer.

    When I first talked to the customer relations rep, she went on and on about using tape #2080, as it has a low tack and was designed to be applied to freshly painted surfaces. I told her that she wasn't listening and explained my problem to her again. Then she got it, and realized the solution was above her head. I asked if the green tape woud be appropriate, as this is what my professional supplier thought I should use instead (same place I bought the blue tape). She was surprised at that idea, telling me she hadn't thought of that one... and maybe it might work... (at this point, I wasn't feeling too impressed with her technical abilities).

    I was happy to wait for her lab guy to respond. I'll get some painters tape today (the #2050) and give it a try (which I might not get to until tomorrow). If the #2050 (crepe) doesn't work, I'll try the #2060 (green), and I'll touch base with 3M again too. When I painted cars - I didn't have this problem... maybe I'll go see an auto-body store...

    As a final precautionary measure, even though I've sanded the snot out of this poplar by now, is to raise the grain with water and give it a final 220 grit ROSing just prior to taping this next round. The #2050 is a bit tackier, and who knows how much loose fiber it will want to pull up when removed...

    Thanks for the suggestion. Todd.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Richland, Michigan
    Posts
    429
    Todd, the 3M guys nailed it right on. As a man who made masking tape for 10 years @ American Tape Company, now known as Inter-Tape Polymers, the problem was solvent from the lacquer.

    As was stated earlier most masking tape uses a low strength solvent based cured rubber adhesive with a high filler content of clay. The paper backing has a latex based barrier coat that lets the adhesive release from the backing as you unroll it. It also provides a barrier to whatever you are coating (IE paint normally) so the tape works as it's supposed to.The clay/rubber mixture is why it turns to dust/chalk after a time as the binder rubber in the system cures into basically dust and the clay filler separates.

    However tape you were using is solvent dissolved and dried (NOT CURED) acyrlic based adhesive - so it only crosslinks on drying and can be redisolved by solvents. It's cheaper and easier to make than rubber based adhesives.

    What happened to you is that the tape you were using was has a fairly low coat weight of this solvent dissolved adhesive (read it's cheaper that way) and low tack (read it comes off easily when you want it to) and there is less barrier filler in the paper backing. The solvent soaked thru, partially dissolving the adhesive. This could have also been aggravated if the tape wasn't properly dried, was older, etc... there is variance in the manufacturing progress.

    The painters grade stuff that 3M recommend is suitable for Oil Based paints as well whereas the other stuff is designed for Latex homeowners based work. The better grade stuff has a higher coat weight and is a rubber based adhesive and much stronger barrier coat. The adhesive has less filler and a higher level of crosslinking plus a higher weight latex based barrier coat which results in less solvent penetration, better adhesion to the paper backing so you have minimal transfer of adhesive to the substrate, and a longer time of contact with clean removal. IE that is why it costs more!

    As to the concerns of tape width in another message, the tape is made in large master rolls (ours were 72" wide & 5000-6000 yds long) then cut to order or forecast on converting machines. There is some variance in width but there are tolerances.. 2" tape should be 2" +/- 1/32" in American tape's manf process. Since there would be 34 rolls across on each barload which means 68 knives (you get waste on the edges) I am not surprised you see some variance. But it should be in spec -- 3M should have a similar manf process I suspect. Most likely though that tape is made in the Philippines, India or Malaysia where most of the cheap stuff is made and saving a 1/16" on each roll would result in more rolls and higher profits..

    If you use ANCHOR or MANCO tape you will get American made stuff (as of my last contact with my old fellow workers) as those are made in Marysville, Mi, Nashville,Tn or Richmond, Ky under private label contracts.
    Last edited by Michael Cody; 12-11-2003 at 10:39 AM.
    Mike-in-Michigan (Richland that is) <br> "We never lack opportunity, the trouble is many don't recognize an opportunity when they see it, mostly because it usually comes dressed in work clothes...."

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Farmington, AR
    Posts
    1,465
    I just love the broad base of knowledge available online. Sometimes you have to sort through the wanna be posts, like some of mine. But the real knowledge is often out there.

    David, who probably should keep his mout.. fingers shut and *use* the info

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Chappell Hill, Texas
    Posts
    4,741
    Michael, thanks for the detailed info.

    Now, can you boil that down to what YOUR recommendation would be for me in the application?!!!

    One of my suppliers sells the Inter-Tape (I think). I discounted it because I had never heard of it.

    Thanks, Todd.

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Richland, Michigan
    Posts
    429
    Quote Originally Posted by Todd Burch
    Michael, thanks for the detailed info.

    Now, can you boil that down to what YOUR recommendation would be for me in the application?!!!

    One of my suppliers sells the Inter-Tape (I think). I discounted it because I had never heard of it.

    Thanks, Todd.

    The professional painters masking tape recommended by 3M should work. Try it out on some samples. Another option I would consider is going to an automotive finishing store and look at one of the automotive masking tapes. They are designed to withstand the solvent based finishing schedules .. you don't need one of the phenolic resin based rubber based heat resistant tapes (IE for baked finishes) that are very expensive, but a general purpose automotive masking tape should work well though it will be more expensive than the cheap blue stuff.

    The thing you want to avoid is adhesive transfer and edge bleed which means don't leave the tape on for an extended period and don't overly press it down. Since it's poplar and not an open grained wood, it should work ok.

    3M makes fine tape -- good as any in the market so it's not a necessarily a brand issue. InterTape is just one manufacturer. You will see their products under the brand Anchor, Central Tape, Tape Incorporated, and American Tape to name a few.
    Mike-in-Michigan (Richland that is) <br> "We never lack opportunity, the trouble is many don't recognize an opportunity when they see it, mostly because it usually comes dressed in work clothes...."

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •