Are the US Woodworking Machinery Companies going the way of the US Auto Industry?

[Rich Konopka]

I was in Woodcraft not too long ago and I couldn't help to notice that the inventory of Big 3 US companies Delta, Jet, and PM was thin. I did see Rikon, General, and Festool. I noticed that the BORG's don't really carry Delta, Jet or PM. I know this stuff can still be found at Amazon, Coastal, etc...

Have the Big 3 in US woodworking seen their glory days? Have they lowered the bar that the competition is hurting them? I bought a Delta TS, DJ20, and DP. But if I were to get a new tablesaw I would definitely look at Grizzly, Sawstop or one of the European sliders. I went with an Italian Bandsaw instead of a US big 3 BS. At the time I felt it was worth it to spend the extra $$ for the MM16 instead of the Big 3 Chinese BS. I felt that the Big 3 US companies have lowered their standards without lowering their prices. Am I off base?

I'm just curious if you would consider or have recently bought a piece of equipment other than the US big 3?

Thanks

[Greg Hairston]

Rich,
A major issue with stores like woodcraft and others carrying the big three is profit margin. It is hard for the stores to carry these machines because there is very little mark up and Amazon sells things so cheap it is hard to compete. This is why you see the Rikons and festools in the stores. They have a limited distrubution policy that allows the stores to make a small profit margin.
For instance if a Delta table saw sells for $1000.00 the small store probably had to pay $900.00 for it after freight. So this is just over a 10% profit margin which is not very good. Now if the tool does not sell (lets say deltal releases a new line two weeks later) the store is stuck with a 900.00 display item. Then they usually have to mark it down to cost just to unload it.
The other companies are easier to deal with. They provide the store a bigger profit margin (not much bigger only around 20% on average which does not pay for overhead) and are much easier for the stores to negotiate with. They will make terms with the store allowing them to return excess stock after X months.
Also the Big companies customer support is going down hill fast. Trying to get a delta rep on the phone is like trying to win the lotery.

I think this is why you see less and less of these machines on store floors and more and more of the other guys

Greg

[Chris Barton]

Hi Rich,

You pose an interesting question but, about 30 years after the revolution has actually occured. First, the brands we so closely identify as being "american" aren't. Jet, Powermatic, Delta, they are all made overseas now and have been for some time. Labor is the issue. This is one reason why Grizzly is such a popular tool line. When your product is made where the average production line worker earnes $2/hr vs $20-50/hr and all the associated benefits, it doesn't take Steven Hawkins to figure out where the profit margin is. Sadly, I don't see any potential for a reversal in this trend.

However, power tools are better made, safer, more reliable and more affordable than ever. When I first started woodworking my initial major purchase was a Craftsman contractor style table saw (approx. 1980). As I recall that saw was around $400 some 27 years ago (and I still have it but, don't use it often). That same $400 is probably worth $1-2K these days. When I bought the Craftsman, it was one of the few offerings available to a hobbiest woodworker. Today for that money I have many choices and far superior capabilities to chose from. While the heyday of USA tools may be in our rearview mirror, the road ahead has many opportunities.

[Chris Jenkins]

I think it hard to say what exactly is going on. Off the top of my head I have noticed less and less stores carrying Delta products. It seems Delta has switched over to focusing on their yellow proudct line as of late rather than their grey machinery line (though their new DP's with 6" quill travel look cool that will be coming out)

I see more and more JET product replacing Delta product out by me. Lowes now carries some of their product and they never used to. Menards carries a lot of JET product and always has by me.

Regarding PM, I think most people forget about what they really sell. Industrial Equipment. Most people like us think about the 66 and 3520B, but really a lot of PM's line is industrial. Like Dovetailers and large jointers, cut off machines and heavy duty mortisers. Stuff that light production work is done on. This type of machinery isn't sitting on the shelf at any BORG, you have to go to a dealer to get this type of equipment.

My two cents.

[Jim Becker]

I'm not surprised at this phenomenon as it's endemic to most of the business community today. It used to be that business and industry was driven by customer needs and pride in product/service was paramount. Today, business and industry is driven by "Wall Street" and cost cutting. Further, society exacerbates the problem by demanding lower and lower prices, despite the higher and higher costs of producing "stuff"...so business and industry finds ways to lower that cost, sometimes to the detriment of quality and longevity.

Nearly all of us in this community contribute to the problem...we're always looking for "a deal" or a "cheaper way to do something". While this is a natural thing to do given financial reality, it doesn't contribute to reversing the problem. Consumer behavior needs to change if we we want the companies that product the products to change. If we refuse to buy "bad stuff" or "good enough stuff", choosing instead to invest our hard-earned money on products that exhibit quality and versatility, then we're voting for how we want business and industry to support us. It starts with individuals, but really needs to encompass the whole community. Sadly, I don't think it's going to happen.

But at least we do have choices...

[Kurt Forbes]

festool is one example of people useing their purchaseing power to vote for quality products over bottom line. No one that buys festool eally talks about how cheap they got it they just discuss how well it works and how much better they work or enjoy that work.

[glenn bradley]

We must be discussing US managed companies because very little product is made here anymore it seems. This could blossom into an overall discussion of economics (which I hope it doesn't). I do share the sense of loss some of us feel at seeing 'Made in China' stamped all over our tools. Now if only the prices reflected the reduction in quality, we'd all have a shop full of tools.

[Pete Brown]

festool is one example of people useing their purchaseing power to vote for quality products over bottom line. No one that buys festool eally talks about how cheap they got it they just discuss how well it works and how much better they work or enjoy that work.

Sawstop is another, as are the European high-end tools (MM etc.)

Part of the issue besides cost, IMHO, is complacency. With only minor exceptions, American-owned woodworking companies aren't innovating like they once did. Heck, they're not even taking good foreign ideas and adopting them with any real speed (look how long it took for riving knives to show up)

My wife and I both drive hondas. Near the end of the year, we're going to get a decked-out Odyssey and I'll take her Pilot. Those cars definitely cost more than most American cars. However, they are built better (in my experience, having owned several american cars as well), last longer and have more features for the buck. Cheap labor isn't really a factor in these as they are assembled in many of the same places American cars are (see latest consumer reports for a story about where many "american" cars actually come from). My point here is that while cost is definitely an issue, especially when it comes to mid and low ticket items, when you get into higher ticket items (good tools, cars etc.), cost is not the primary differentiator - in fact, the US tools/cars often have cost on their side.

I agree with Jim that it is unlikely that we'll see the cheaper/faster trend change based just on consumer activity. We're all adicted to our "stuff" (me included) including just about everything with a plug on it in our houses.

I try and buy quality whenever I can. Sometimes that is American (Sherline cnc mill and lathe, Oneida dust collector) and other times that ends up being European (Festool stuff, MM16 bandsaw).

Pete

[Paul Johnstone]

Has Jet ever made anything in America? I don't think so. IIRC, they got started by undercutting the delta version of tools by about $40-50, and grew market share.

IMO, the problem with Delta is now that they've moved their stuff overseas, it's hard to differentiate them from anyone else. Look at the 8" jointer threads. The shop fox parallelogram 8" jointer for $700 delivered (to a loading dock, you pick up), vs the Delta DJ-20 on special which was about $1100 delivered (to your house).. Now to make apples to apples, I think the shop fox was $850 delivered to your house.

That was a hard choice, because they seemed identical, other than the motors. In the end, I picked the DJ-20, but if it wasn't on sale (and was $1600), I would've done the shop fox as well.. I'm ok with paying $250 for the DJ-20, just because I'm more comfortable with Delta (not a slam on Shop Fox, they seem to get a lot of praise, it's just irrational personal comfort). Most people are not making decisions that way.

So Delta now has all these import companies (Grizzly, Shop Fox, etc) attacking them on the low end, as well as new dealers attacking them on the high end.. such as Steel City and Sawstop. I'd even go so far as to say that Rikon is an emerging "high end" competitor, because they are so inovative. Rikon isn't on the level of Steel City, but they seem to be on the level of Jet/Delta. IMO, Rikon's bandsaw's are much better than today's version of Jet/Delta. Also, I call Griz and Shop Fox low end largely because they seem to focus on value engineering and winning customers on cost. Doesn't necessarily mean that their quality is bad. I'm not insulting any company here, so please, no one take offense.
I haven't looked at the rest of their line, but they get rave reviews.

[Jay Brewer]

I agree 100% with Jim and Kurt, the fact is we have done it to ourselves. I am amazed the pride we take in our work and when it comes to our machinery we settle for as long as it turns on when we push the button.Even if the Delta Unisaw was still made in the US w/ US parts and labor, some would, but I doubt most would pay the premium that this saw would bring. The key is to build innovative tools that are harder to copy, which the Europeans have been very succesfull at, but are now being copied by the asian importers.

[John W Parker]

What I find interesting is how hard it is to determine where a certain machine is manufactured. I am not sure but I read somewhere that Saw Stop was actually manufactured in Taiwan. Jet equipment is also manufactured in Taiwan. It is even hard to determine where the actual companies are owned. I believe it will soon come to the point when it will be impossible to know where anything is made. I guess this is what a global economy is all about.

[Rod Sheridan]

If you want a traditional made in North America piece of equipment, purchase a General.

Made in Drummondville Quebec, still familly owned.

Regards, Rod.

[Per Swenson]

I am not so sure you can go and blame the company's

when its the consumers fault for not voting with their

wallet and demanding quality instead of price point.

Let's take hypothetical sunglasses for a minute.

I 'am a sunglass freak. A good pair of glasses run me 100 to 150 bucks

and will last me a good year and a 1/2 before they are lost or completely

scratched. A 10 dollar pair lasts a week. Which ones do you think

I spend more on in the long run?

The 10 dollar ones because I can't resist the illusion of a

bargain while selling myself

short.

America, the most powerful economic force on the planet, wears cheap

work boots. The most expensive shoes known to man.

Sorry about my 2 cents.

Per

[Jeffrey Makiel]

I'm not sure that I agree that quality has gone downhill with consumer grade woodworking equipment, nor has innovation gone away. It's just been off-shored.

When I bought my Delta cabinet saw 17 years ago, I paid big bucks and thought is was superb quality at the time. Although I believe it is still a decent saw, the new offerings in table saws these days are much better in quality, in my opinion, and have more innovations. Examples are better surface grind, better fences, and improve safety features.

As far as innovation, we're seeing tablesaws with wonderful safety features like the Sawstop's blade retraction system, and tablesaws being equipped with riving knives. I don't think one manufacturer of cabinet saws offers a crummy fence. In fact, the new fences are really thought out.

Consumers have a wonderful tool called the internet. Information moves fast these days, and lousy products are soon learned. Forums like this one have provided tremendous knowledge when I'm in the market for a new tool.

I think the problem with former US based suppliers like Delta and Powermatic is that the Asian based products have caught up in quality, and the US manufacturers were too slow to liquidate their US assets and jump onboard. That is, they were too slow to shed themselve of the US labor rate, and get rid of the increasing overhead cost of manufacturing within the US.

As Jim points out, there's a "Wall Street" effect. Near term gains are what seems to be important. Who care about 5, 10 or 20 years from now. Therefore, all the former US based companies are now whoring their names on Asian stuff probably until their reputation has been played out (i.e., 'leveraged') or they stabilize their decaying market share. It's a matter of survival in a lop-sided global market.

It's all a sad comment on our US trade policies. Remember, it's 'free trade' not 'fair trade'.

-Jeff

[Jim Becker]

Jeff, I need to point out that this whole phenominon has nothing to do with the "US" for the most part as the industry is pretty much a multi-national situation. That said, the way trade works certainly contributes to the "ease" that companies and manufacturers have to adjust their sourcing.