Are the US Woodworking Machinery Companies going the way of the US Auto Industry?

[Tim Wagner]

as for the woodcraft senario, I will be buying from them, as opposed to the internet.

I'd rather see my Local Business owner get the money.

I ordered a gift at amazon that I couldn't find localy, and asked them to put it in a plain brown box. they wrote back to say that Amazon doesn't stock any products, and that I had to contact this other copany that was selling it and shipping it. I did. they refused. I canceled the order and told them that it seemed they didn't need to make any money as they wouldn't compromize over a 2 doller box. I also informed amazon they wouldn't be getting any more orders from me as I don't like the fact that they are just sucking money from those who really do the leg work. The only thing that makes amazon money is the name Amazon.

As for the honda odysee, we have one, and will never get another. We, and at least 15 other odysee owners i have directly talked to, have nothing but problems with keeping transmissions in them. I feel they are truly a lemon.

Tim.

[Ted Miller]

I am one of those that would like to spend every tool dollar in my area or state. Yesterday I spent $227.00 at Rockler and $64.00 at Woodcraft. But the internet has really done a number on most local business. Some of the items I purchased yesterday I could save 20% from amazon with free shipping.

I deal with huge amounts of mail each day from the USPS since I work at a college. Now that we have e-mail I would say in the last 20 years the mail workload is cut in half.

I know its tough for us wood guys but things change, companies grow, thew cost of living goes up. Making a buck means more than anything than ever before, no matter what the cost to consumers in quality. Sometimes I really think the name of a product means more than the how the product works and QC...

["Michael Hinkel"]

I don't think there is any one thing/person to blame. When I was A kid Japan was the country stuff came from and everyone complained, and being a kid I could never under stand why the US was shopping at our enemies store. Since then the "Store " has moved around to who ever supplies the cheapest labor/material etc.
Companies are doing what the average consumer does, they are making a product to sell and trying to keep as much money in their pockets as possible, sounds like me.
I have tried to buy made in America most of my life, sometimes I was fooled, I thought it was American made until I read the fine print. Or it turned out to be apiece of junk. Eventually that choice was narrowed down by the World economy.
We can still have a say in the market, don't buy poorly made Items. Educate ourselves, until yesterday I didn't know General tools are available in my area, deal with peolple that will give you service, continue to use places like this forum, magazines and other woodworkers to make buying decisions.
A store in my area has a big selection of Delta, Jet and PowerMatic. I went further away to make my most recent purchase because my experience with Delta service was bad and the store was no help, it won't even stock consumables for some of the tools they sell.
By asking the manufacturer he put me in touch with a dealer that assembled and delivered a Steel City planer into my shop for an extra $50.00, it would cost me more to arrange shipping and pick up at a terminal. I voted against The others with an eye on local service and money. I have plans to upgrade more of my tools but because of Forums, guys like you, the web and reading material I hope to make better decisions than I did 20 years ago.

This is more than I usually say and its just my .05 cents worth

[Rich Konopka]

I guess the point I was trying to make is that the Big 3 US wood working machinery companies have lost a competitive edge.

Delta, PM, and Jet have moved their manufacturing overseas. They have reduced costs without really passing on the savings to consumers and apparently the margins are not there for retailers. By moving their manufacturing COMPLETELY off shore, they've reduced their quality, maintained / increased their prices has opened the door for other competitors such as Rikon, Grizzly, and Sawstop.

IMHO, This is most likely going to hurt Delta the most. They are owned by Black and Decker which also owns Dewalt and Porter & Cable. I have also notice that there is less of Dewalt and Black & Decker and more of Rigid at Home Cheapo. If I was a betting man I would bet that both Lowes and HD have to be B&D's largest customers. I would also bet they are squeezing out B&K products for their own branded (Rigid) and it is going to hurt B&D. Any I would also bet that B&D will see sales of Delta, Dewalt, P&C drop if they have not already.

When I purchased my Delta equipment 4-5 years ago. It came with an American Flag on it and it was eitheir partially manufactured and assembled in the Good Ole US of A. That stood for something compared to the Chinese & Tiwaneese stuff back then. Flash forward a couple of years. With Delta manufacturing over in China or where ever, they have essentially lowered themselves to more competition. If I was to look at new equipment I would look at Rikon and Grizzly because they are priced much better and in terms of quality have to be equal or better.

What is interesting is that Sawstop once the bastard child on this forumn (IMHO) is now becoming mainstream available at many retail locations and owned by many SMC members. Why? Their prices are not any lower? They are made overseas?? Is it a better quality product?? more innvovative? safer?

[Jeff Wright]

With the ever cheapening of products, it is even more satisfying to buy quality. Companies that come to mind are Lie-Nielsen, Micro-Fence, Veritas, Festool, Starrett, Forrest Blades, Whiteside, Infinity Tools. There are others. I no longer compromise. I am too much of a value monger.

[thomas prevost]

PRIDE is the major problem with US products. It is true of most products- cars, machinery, appliances etc. There was a time when company directors took PRIDE in the quality of their products, manufacturing facilities, and employees. In the 80's this went by the roadside. They prostituted themselves for Wall Street and increased profits. Inferior raw materials crept in, factories and machinery were not updated, and employees were treated like commodities rather than partners. With this treatment, employees lost the traditional RIDE of working for GM, Ford, Dupont, etc. Quality was traded off for volume output. Return on investment for most major companies went from the traditional 10-14% to 28-40%in the late 70's-90's.

At the same time Japan and now China are learning to manufacture quality products. Just look at the Auto industry. Now american industry is worried about survival. The shift has goine beyond the critical point of return.

We may see some finishing in the US but most factory work will be overseas. NOTE: labor is only about 5-7% of manufacture. Energy costs are in the 40-60 level. Thus, There is a lot of false bunk about labor costs overseas. the increased energy costs usually balance this out. Tax savings are the usual drivers.

Europe who once relied on the US for quality pruducts, are now taking the bull by the horns and developing thier own lines. Tools, appliances etc.

We would like to believe American made stands for quality, but it is slowly becoming less true and not because of the employees, but, wall street greed.

Well my 2cents.

[Alex Shanku]

...They have reduced costs without really passing on the savings to consumers ...

The price for a Unisaw is the same, or cheaper, today, as it was in the early 1980s

[John D. Thompson]

I just read this thread and I don't know where to start so, I'll just say that I quit buying Delta about 15 years ago.

The last thing I bought from Delta was their little 22-540 12" planer and I couldn't be happier with it. That little rascal is still going after planing God only knows how many thousands of linear feet. It was made in Taiwan. I actually own 2 of them as well as a 20" 4-knife Grizzly. My problem with this is that Delta discontinued the little guy and went with the 12 1/2'' model. My brother has one of these and he has had to replace the feed rollers twice and has had multiple problems with the knife clamps. The real kicker though is the fact that, while the 12" knives are resharpenable (think Makita wet wheel), the 12 1/2" are not. They register on pins in the cutterhead and so, are not adjustable for wear. Every time you want to change knives Delta makes a profit.

The point made about our seeking to save a buck is spot on, but one of the underlying influences (which has been mentioned elsewhere in this thread) is that the vast majority of the market does not understand craftsmanship and, therefore, does not understand quality. The members of this forum, along with other dedicated, educated, demanding consumers, are a very small minority of the group of people who buy new power tools.

Also, one must consider the aspect of 'planned obsolescence'. The manufacturers we all grew up on and learned to respect and trust have found that they have to keep on selling tools to stay in business. There are only so many table saws needed in this world so, if they don't break or wear out, there is no demand for new ones. This can only mean that the only two ways for those guys to stay in business are 1) to manufacture garbage and market it to the unsuspecting or 2) to pull their horns WAY in and make a limited number of high quality tools for the educated and discerning consumer (us). Their corporate structure and Wall Street dictate choosing option 1.

This is why, whenever I upgrade, I hold on until I can find vintage iron.
Those older pieces are permanent and, as such, will never lose their resale value. With the addition of the occasional bearing or motor they will go until so much material has passed over the table that it has worn out of true and then there's usually so much 'meat' on their bones that you could have the thing re-surfaced and go ANOTHER 80 years!

Oh well.

On a side note, I was under the impression that, while Jet had closed the Powermatic plant temporarily, that they were going to re-open for manufacturing. Is that not true?

JT

[Pete Brown]

We may see some finishing in the US but most factory work will be overseas. NOTE: labor is only about 5-7% of manufacture. Energy costs are in the 40-60 level. Thus, There is a lot of false bunk about labor costs overseas. the increased energy costs usually balance this out. Tax savings are the usual drivers.

This doesn't jive with everything I've read in the past, and with thinking through how tools are assembled.

Do you have a cite for this point?

Thanks.

Pete

[Rich Konopka]

The price for a Unisaw is the same, or cheaper, today, as it was in the early 1980s

I dunno about 1980's but when I was looking at them 3-4 years ago they could be had for $1400- $1600. They are now 2100 give or take. They switched over to the x5 name and had the 5 year warranty for the extra bucks.

[John Gornall]

American auto industry?

We just got a new shop truck - GMC Sierra - under the hood most items have a "Made in Brazil" sticker on them and the VIN number starts with a 3 which means it was assembled in Mexico.

[John Bailey]

This doesn't jive with everything I've read in the past, and with thinking through how tools are assembled.

Do you have a cite for this point?

Thanks.

Pete

Hate to bring this up, as it might start to politicize the thread, but if you get a copy of the "FairTax Book" it will explain a lot of why "off shoring" has happened.

John

[James Carmichael]

It's economic specialization, each entity does what it does best, making for better economic efficiency. Technology, in the form of transportation and communications, have made this possible wherever govts do not impose artificial obstacles in the form of tariffs, import quotas, etc.

Now, short rant: America has a trade deficit and a national debt measured in the trillions. I am a free-market kinda guy, but it is time to reintroduce some tariffs to reduce both the trade deficit and national debt. Yes, this will mean we pay more for stuff, but we simply can not keep on as the consumer nation.

[Alfred Clem]

John Carmichael: why can't America continue as "the consumer nation?" As long as our trading partners continue to accept pieces of paper in exchange for manufactured goods, why not? And as long as those pieces of paper (dollars, IOUs, government bonds, etc.) continue to drop in value, why not? Ahh, but some day our trading partners will wise up and either stop taking those shrinking pieces of paper or accepting fewer of them, the dance goes on. And we stop getting their goods, and their factories close, and they have huge unemployment as a result. It's a shell game, John -- we get the goods and they get the jobs. Keeps their seething millions occupied, docile, and off the streets.

But, like a game of musical chairs, the music ends eventually. We saw just a hint of that last week, when the Chinese stock market had a hiccup. May you live in interesting times.

[Rob Will]

I went to Sears yesterday with the sole purpose of looking for American made power tools. I don't care about cost......just looking for the right features.......and USA made.

Every single power tool at Sears either says made in "China" or "Tiawan".

Another thing that has not been mentioned here is that many US companies have a rich history of retirees with insurance and persion plans. Toyota brags about thier US facilities but I wonder how thier retiree benefits list compares to a company like Ford's?

Rob