Ok, so now I'm officially confused...

[peter slamp]

While reading through Jewitt's finishing book, he talks about using a sanding sealer to raise the grain for fine sanding and grainfilling etc. This makes sense, but... I decided I'd try using zinsser's dewaxed shellax sealer. The question is, I've been reading that shellac does not raise the grain and does not need to be sanded. Is shellac different than 'sanding sealer dewaxed shellac' ? I thought a sealer was basically a 'diluted' version of whatever finish.
Anyways, basically I want to try shellac for the first time. Can someone walk me through the steps from shellac sealer through varnish topcoat including when to sand and what grit. The varnish will either be minwax poly, rockhard, ben matte or waterlox original gloss. Thanks alot. Everytime I think I've got it, I read something else that confuses me again.
Oh and why can't labels actually tell you what's really in the can?

[glenn bradley]

I can only report my use, YMMV. I sand to 220, wipe on Zinsser's Seal Coat (dries in about 30 minutes), lightly sand with 400 to remove any fuzz, check with a light shone across the surface and deal with anything I don't like (thin spots, nibs, etc.). The nice thing about shellac is you can touch up dry areas and blend them so that they are invisible.

After that (which isn't as involved as I have made it sound), I stain to taste and final coat. An example would be this piece. Although I used BLO as a sealer to even out the stain absorption, I have switched to Seal Coat for that purpose:

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/attachme...8&d=1158638873

[jeremy levine]

Perhaps a better phrase is leveler grain filler. Apply and sand away most of it and you have a leveled and netural filled surface. Per did a similar thing ( like 4 times at lots of grits ) here
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=53913

[Howard Acheson]

The problem is the rather loose use of the word "sealer" and "sanding sealer.

There are specific products designed as sanding sealers. These are lacquer based to be used under lacquer top-coats, but lacquer based can not be used under oil based poly or any waterborne finish. Oil based sanding sealers are to be used under oil based finishes and vinyl sanding sealers are to be used under two part finishes. These all are high solid materials designed to fill the grain, build fast and to be easy to sand.

Zinnser's SealCoat Sanding Sealer is really just a dewaxed blond shellac. Shellac can be used as a sanding sealer but that is somewhat a secondary use. It dries fast and can be sanded. It does not fill the grain well because it has relatively little in the way of solids. It is also quite hard so sanding is not that easy.

Finally, any finish thinned and applied directly to wood is also a "sealer" in that it seals the pores of the wood. Depending on the type of finish, it may or may not fill the pores but it still "seals" the wood. Using a thinned version of the final finsh is always the safest way to go as you eliminate and compatability problems.

[peter slamp]

Zinnser's SealCoat Sanding Sealer is really just a dewaxed blond shellac. Shellac can be used as a sanding sealer but that is somewhat a secondary use.

Okay, then what is its primary use. Read : what am I really using it for? Is it basically a precoat for a shellac topcoat? If I'm not planning on using shellac as a topcoat is it really the best option? Is shellac good for a glossy, protective topcoat? If I decide to use waterlox gloss would it make sense to just thin that for the initial coat of 'sealer'?
See what I mean. One question invariably leads to more. I'm comfortable using poly for a topcoat but I really wanted to try something different this time.

[Greg Robbins]

I use shellac all the time and never put any kind of a sealer on. The first coat of shellac is the sealer. Some light sanding with 400 grit if it's a little rough and it's smooth as a baby's butt.

[John Michaels]

I may or may not answer all of your questions, but here goes. With great success I've done the following.

1. Zinsser's dewaxed shellac in the spray can - 2 coats. I use shellac first because it seals the wood and doesn't raise the grain. I don't usually sand between coats of shellac.

2. Dalys Crystalfin Gloss - About 5 coats, 2 of them real thick. I sand with 320 grit between coats. The thick coats help to fill the pores.

3. Dalys Crystalfin Satin 1 thick coat, or 2 light coats. If you put more than about 3 coats of satin on, it will become cloudy and obscure the beauty of the wood. The reason for satin is to fill any small pores that might still be glossy from where the sandpaper doesn't reach.

4. Sand with 320, 400, 600.

5. Wait about a day or longer, then buff with #0000 steel wool. If the finish still needs some perfecting, apply Minwax Paste Finishing wax and let dry for 15 minutes. Buff as much as you can off, then goes over with #0000 steel wool again.

The result will be a silky smooth satin finish that will beg to be touched.

[peter slamp]

Thanks John for the very detailed outline. This is the kind of stuff I was looking for. Is the Daly's Crystalfin considered 'varnish' in woodworking parlance? Thanks!

[John Michaels]

Thanks John for the very detailed outline. This is the kind of stuff I was looking for. Is the Daly's Crystalfin considered 'varnish' in woodworking parlance? Thanks!

Daly's Crystalfin is a water-based acrylic polyurethane. Dries pretty quick
and no fumes like oil based stuff.

[peter slamp]

Cool, I went to the Daly's site and found some good info there. I guess I'll have to try this Daly's stuff. Mark Singer also advocates it. Good enough for me! One question though. Probably a silly one I'm sure but, how does water-based poly fare against water disasters? Thanks.

[Jim Becker]

Any liquid you add to the wood will "raise the grain" in a sense...some more than others. Light sanding after an initial coat of shellac is always indicated to knock down any "fuzzies" just as is is after you raise the grain intentionally with distilled water.

[John Michaels]

how does water-based poly fare against water disasters? Thanks.

The book I have states:

very good scratch and heat resistance
good water and solvent resistance
moderate stain resistance

[Joe Chritz]

Maybe I just missed it but the most important purpose of dewaxed shellac a.k.a. Zinseer sealcoat is as a barrier.

If you have oil stain and water base finish (like I do all the time) then a coat of dewaxed shellac over the stain will guarentee no compatibility problems.

It also warms up the tone of waterbased finishes some.

When I use waterlox I just go right out of the can and wipe on a light coat. Then build from there.

Joe

[Howard Acheson]

Okay, then what is its primary use. Read : what am I really using it for? Is it basically a precoat for a shellac topcoat? If I'm not planning on using shellac as a topcoat is it really the best option? Is shellac good for a glossy, protective topcoat? If I decide to use waterlox gloss would it make sense to just thin that for the initial coat of 'sealer'?
See what I mean. One question invariably leads to more. I'm comfortable using poly for a topcoat but I really wanted to try something different this time.

As I said before, Zinnser SealCoat is just a 2# cut of blond shellac that has been dewaxed. In other words, it's nothing more than shellac.

Calling it a sanding sealer is just the marketing department attempting to sell the product. If you look at any poly varnish or waterborne finish you will see that it cautions not to use it over shellac. The reason for the caution is that oil based poly and waterborne does not adhere well to shellac that contains its natural wax. So, Zinnser dewaxed the SealCoat so it can be used as an undercoat for poly and waterborne.

Shellac, as a finish has pretty much died out except for a small number of amatuer woodworkers. Zinsser is the only US maker of premixed shellac left. They obviously feel that calling it a "sanding sealer" will give them entry to a market that just "shellac" would not.

Other than its use as a complete finish, shellac is a good barrier coat between incompatable finishes or stains. It can also be used to seal contaminated surfaces. Depending on the color, shellac can also be used to color the wood. I will sometimes use an amber or orange shellac to warm up the color of kiln dried walnut. I will then apply a top coat of non-poly varnish.

Shellac comes in a lot of color from dark brown to super blond. However, you need to by flakes and mix it with denatured alcohol to get all the varieties.