Dust Collector Dilemma

[Bill Leung]

Hi all,

I have a question regarding dust collectors. Reading through all the past post has me more confused now then when I started. I need to get a dust collector for a smaller shop (10x20 single car garage) and am a hobbyist, I don't have the tools that make alot of dust (jointer, planer, oscillating sander) but hopefully will in the near future.

My question is this.
For single tool dust collection, will a 1.5 hp, 1100 cfm (jet or delta) be good enough (1 or 2 micron bag)?

Will you need to put on a Wynn filter anyway (adds another $80-$100 to the price).

With the total cost coming to around $500, does it make sense to get a lower end Cyclone with cost $800+shipping which brings the price to $1000.

Thanks in advance.

[Brian Dormer]

The 1.5 hp should be more than you need for a single tool. Since you are a hobbiest with limited space you might want to consider one of the .75 to 1 hp DC's. Also plenty of power for a single tool. I outfitted mine (c-man - purchased on sale) with a .3 micron from Grizzly and it works great.

I think the $1000 unit, for your application is probably extreme overkill.

[Wilbur Pan]

My shop is also 10x20 and in a basement, so my air issues are probably worse than yours, as you should be able to open a door and/or windows.

I bought the JDS Dust Force dust collector (also 1.5 HP, allegedly 1250 CFM, 1 micron bag) and a JDS 750-ER air cleaner. The Dust Force doesn't take up that much space. The two in conjunction seem to be doing well with controlling the dust. Total cost was $600 at a Woodcraft 10% off/free delivery sale.

Remember, the dust collector only has one shot at collecting dust, and that some will escape, despite the most heroic efforts at building the ultimate cyclone system. That's where the air cleaner comes in. You'll have the luxury of opening the garage door or a window, which is the best method of clearing dust from a room. But I would get both.

[James Leonard]

Hi,

I am putting my main dust collector outside which is a one horse chinese 110V job with a one micron filter. Since it is generally conceded that this will not have enough 'suck' to pull stuff from a jointer or drum sander over a distance I am going to try cheap and small Harbor Freight mobile units without bags to 'pump' the main hose. By this I mean I will connect the input of the small motor blower to the tool and the output to the long run of hose going outside to the dust collector. I cut many things on my CNC tools that produce harsh sub-micron dust, IMHO it is not possible to really filter this, so I REALLY want to send it outside into a storage shed I have set up.

-James Leonard

[Mark Engel]

I think Harbor Freight Tools is probably a bad word around here, but...

This is the dust collector I am currently using. The main thing I don't like about it is it only runs on 110v (so 2hp is probably a stretch).

What I do like about it is it works very well. I have it piped in to all of my machines with 4" blast gates at each one. I also have a trash can mounted chip separator. I was able to pick up some felt .1 micron bags for it on ebay.

It is only 200 dollars. I got it on sale a while back for $159.99.

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/cta...emnumber=45378

[Bill Leung]

Thanks for all the replies, I already have a Jet air cleaner which I noticed cleans up the ambient air pretty nicely. I have been using my Fein vac for dust collection and that has been marginal on the TS and BS.

Although I know alot of people use the "bag" dust collectors, everyone seems to want a cyclone. I haven't read too many post stating that the bags do a great job at dust collection which is why I posted my question.

I know the cyclone has many advantages over the bags but do the virtues warrant the difference in price? I guess I don't want to be buying a cyclone in a year after buying the bag system.

[Rick Moyer]

I can't help you with answers, Bill, but I have some similar questions I'd like to ask here as well. (I'm sorry if this seems like a highjack, but maybe my questions can help with your thought process, too!).
It seems to me there are two main issues with dust:
1. having to clean it up around the shop
2. breathing in dangerous dust
I would like to know opinions(or facts) as to what is nececssary to keep things relatively clean in a small shop: e.g., is the type of unit Bill asks about adequate to hook to one tool at a time and do a good job? In other words, what is necessary at minimal costs <$500 to do this.
Secondly, is this minimal outlay somewhat futile in controlling dangerous dust particles and if so, how much does one need to spend on what for safe breathing. I don't want to have premature lung issues, but also can't seem to justify more $$ in dust collection than any of my tools. (but I may be wrong). Sorry for the intrusion of your post Bill.

[Tom Maple]

Bill,

Having recently re-entered the woodworking hobby I have also wrestled with the dust collection issue and found a site put together by Bill Pentz to be extremely helpful. It is not a quick overview. He has very detailed information and designs for building your own cyclone.
Being older (and hopefully wiser) I have tried to follow his guidelines.
This may be overly simplified, but the bottom line appears to be if you don't use a properly designed cyclone, it is no better than other systems. It will just push the dust around your shop, even if you use a cartridge filter.
If you can't use a good cyclone system you are better off using a 2 hp collector and exhausting it outdoors.
Remember, it's the small, invisible .5 micron dust that is the most dangerous to your lungs.
Good luck,
Tom

[terry sligar]

i bought a harbor freight dc and put a wynn filter on it and piped it all over my shop and it reall does do a nice job.

[EJ Gowlovech]

I've looked at Bill Pentz' site and there is a lot of info there. Almost too much. Does anyone have any "easy" cyclone plans that one could add to their existing DC system? I have the Jet 1100 1.5 hp system, and usually just move the hoses around, but I would like to get a system going in the shop (aka garage) so I don't have to keep stepping around everything.

Any info would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

E.J.

[Wilbur Pan]

I know the cyclone has many advantages over the bags but do the virtues warrant the difference in price? I guess I don't want to be buying a cyclone in a year after buying the bag system.

It seems to me there are two main issues with dust:
1. having to clean it up around the shop
2. breathing in dangerous dust
I would like to know opinions(or facts) as to what is nececssary to keep things relatively clean in a small shop: e.g., is the type of unit Bill asks about adequate to hook to one tool at a time and do a good job? In other words, what is necessary at minimal costs <$500 to do this.
Secondly, is this minimal outlay somewhat futile in controlling dangerous dust particles and if so, how much does one need to spend on what for safe breathing. I don't want to have premature lung issues, but also can't seem to justify more $$ in dust collection than any of my tools. (but I may be wrong). Sorry for the intrusion of your post Bill.

All the information you need is on Bill Pentz's website, but even as an advocate for paying close attention to dust collection needs I'll even say that Bill's site is kind of a "drinking from a firehose" experience. I had to read it through more than a few times before I was able to wrap my brain around this issue.

Having said that, I think I can simplify things a bit.

1. The dust you need to worry about is the 1-10 micron particles. This is the stuff you can't see. This is the stuff that will kill your lungs. There isn't a real "safe" level of dust exposure for the smallest particles.

2. There are two ways of trapping this dust: collecting it at the source (dust collector/cyclone system) and filtering the air (air cleaner).

3. The way to get the fine dust at the source is to move air -- lots of air. The only way to do this is with motors that have enough horsepower and blower fans that are big enough. Don't think that because your DC can get at the chips, you're doing a good job. It's easier to suck up chips than fine dust.

4. The way you measure air flow is CFM. More CFM is better. For a list of CFM needed to collect dust from various machines, see this table on Bill Pentz's website. Note that you'll need up to 700-1000 CFM for some machines to collect the fine dust.

5. Dust collectors come with CFM specs. These specs are, ummm, optimistic at best. Large motor + large blower fan = lots of CFM. That's the only way to get it. Or, as Scotty used to say, "I canna break the laws of physics!"

6. What works against the CFM spec that comes with your machine is the fact that by running ducting from the machine to the dust collector you add resistance, and therefore lower the CFM.

7. The things that will add resistance are narrow ducts (< 6") and long ducting runs.

8. The other thing that will decrease your CFM is clogging whatever filter (bag or canister) you are using on your dust collector with dust as you use it. The way to prevent your filter from clogging is with a cyclone separator, which will also add resistance to your system, which will drop your CFM yet again. This is one reason why cyclone systems come with larger motors and larger blower fans than regular dust collectors.

9. No matter how great your dust collector/cyclone is, you can't get all the dust at the source. So you need some sort of back up plan to get the airborne dust.

10. Your two options for the back up plan are: opening a window or door (which is the best option by far), and running an air cleaner.

11. If you run an air cleaner, you need to get enough CFM for your room. Conventional wisdom says to exchange the room volume about 6-10 times an hour. Much better is to aim for 25 air exchanges per hour. You'll clear out the airborne dust much more quickly.

As I mentioned above, I have a 1.5 HP/11" blower fan non-cyclone dust collector and an air cleaner. The way I get around the issues of duct resistance is I move my dust collector from machine to machine and use a very short run of flexible duct (8 ft. of 4" duct hose). This should still give me around 800 CFM. If you plan on a more permanent ducting system, you're going to need a 3-5 HP motor and a 14-15" blower fan to get around the duct resistance.

[Bill Leung]

No hijacking worries here Rick.

All, Thanks for your responses. I've read Bill Pentzs' site (many articles a few times). There is a lot of good information on the site and as a Mechanical Engineer, (no expert in air filtration), I agree with his comments/ facts. The reason I have not gone out and bought a cyclone is the following:

1) Bill's site states that a cyclone is more effective because it get's the heavy particulates out of the air stream leaving only the fine dust for the filters. Even then, the recommendation is to filter outside for both systems. The cyclone is more efficient because it makes the filters more effective and efficient. Is this really the advantage since the bag dust collectors do a fairly good job at collecting the big stuff as well? From articles and such, even industrial cyclones exhaust to the outside, which seems to be big advantage. Will staying on top of cleaning/replacing filters be just as good?

2) His site recommends 1100 cfm models from Jet and Delta. They provide 800cfm at the tool which is what is required to be effective. I know that more HP can move more air but for a smaller shop is this really a problem.

I just want to make sure I'm not missing something else before making my decision. I'll be the first to admit that if I spent a $1000+, I'll be telling everyone it was money well spent regardless. I just got to thinking that will a good dust collector, air filter and maybe a mask, especially for the dust intensive jobs be just as good especially if you throw the exhaust outside.

[terry hansen]

Like you I suffered the same dilema. I used a mobile 1 1/2 delta DC and moved from machine to machine. After wading through Bill's website and understanding about 1/2 of it, I finally rationalized the purchase of a cyclone, ducting and ambient air filter as another tool to make my "hobby" more enjoyable and safer. I was able to locate entire unit outside workshop so dust filter doesn't vent back into shop (living in FL helps one not worry about cold). This works well for me and I realize it may not fit your situation, but if you consider a DC another tool and use the same criteria as selecting a TS or (insert favorite next tool here), it helped me put the process in perspective.

[Rick Moyer]

Wilbur, thank you for consolidating the volumes of info. It all makes better sense to me now and I think I can decide what I should do.

[Kelly C. Hanna]

Get the biggest and best one you can afford....it's kind of like shop space.