Results 1 to 11 of 11

Thread: Water Based vs Oil Based Wood Stain?

  1. #1

    Water Based vs Oil Based Wood Stain?

    I ran into a problem and am looking for a way to solve it.

    I stained a sheet of birch plywood with Minwax (Oil Based) Wood Stain,
    waited 2 weeks, then applied acrylic paint in some areas. I noticed that
    on lighter colours the moisture from the paint drew up the stain and kinda
    bleed through. But after I applied 2 or 3 coats of paint it seemed to be
    fine.

    After I finished painting I let everything dry for a week.

    Then I applied Deft Gloss Lacquer. Now the problem arose. It seems the
    moisture from the lacquer activated the oil in the stain and drew it up
    again through the dried paint. So the white for example had brown
    blotches.

    So I will have to repaint certain areas, and lacquer again. I am hoping the the lacquer layer that is there now is non-porous and the blotching won't
    re-occure.

    Anyway, if I use water based wood stain it should eliminate this problem
    as the water stain will completely dry unlike the oil stain. Correct?

    Are there any draw-backs to water based stains? Or should it work just
    as well as the oil based ones.

    Thanks,

    James

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Shoreline, CT
    Posts
    2,622
    I think the problem is more likely to be interaction between the acyrlic paint and the thinner in the brushing lacquer. Waterborne finishes, and this would include waterborne stain, are vulnerable to damage from the relatively strong solvents in lacquer, though lacquer can effect oil based finishes and stains as well.

    You might try a coat of shellac before you apply lacquer, but the barrier coat works better with sprayed on lacquer where the solvents dry faster and don't mechanically impact the surface as with a brush. I suspect the easiest solution would be to change the top coat altogether.

    Shellac won't harm the under layers, dries quickly, and is very nearly as protective as the lacquer would be. Another possibility would be going to a waterborne top coat.

  3. #3
    I don't think that's the problem. I have done previous works where I painted just the bare birch plywood and then applied the lacquer on top and there were no problems whatsoever. One work is more than a year old and the lacquer hasn't affected the acrylic paint underneath at all.
    The lacquer (Deft) really dries fast so that may be helping.

    This last work is the first one I stained (I wanted a darker wood colour as birch is very light, but cheap) with the wood stain before paintiing. So it is definately the wood stain (or the oil in it) that has bleed up into the paint.

    James

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Southport, NC
    Posts
    2,959
    >> This last work is the first one I stained

    I believe Steve is correct. The solvents and thinners in lacquer will soften waterborne acrilyc finishes. The softening, and then subsequent re-hardening in the past had little affect as there was no oil based finish underneath to be drawn through the acrylic. In your most recent project, you had an underlying oil based stain that was also dissolved by the solvents and thinners in your lacquer coating.

    I would also recommend a barrier coat of shellac or just a shellac finish as your final coating.
    Howie.........

  5. #5
    Thanks!

    But wouldn't switching to water-based stain also solve the problem?

    James

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    SE PA - Central Bucks County
    Posts
    37,808
    Quote Originally Posted by Jim Farrow View Post
    But wouldn't switching to water-based stain also solve the problem?
    Water soluble (they are not water "based") dyes and stains can still be dissolved by other solvents, so it's best to seal them before proceeding with other finishing steps. De-waxed shellac is one example of a sealer that can be used for this purpose to provide a barrier layer and the "color value" of the shellac can be used to further tone the wood in the process.
    “Never raise your hands to your children, it leaves your groin unprotected.” - Red Buttons

    If you want your spouse to listen and pay strict attention to every word you say -- talk in your sleep...

    Be safety conscious. 80% of people are caused by accidents.

    Equestrian Sports. The most fun you can have with your boots still on...


  7. #7
    Thanks!

    I am trying to avoid having a sealer between the stain and the paint as it's very difficult to apply paint on top of smooth finishes. It can be done but it's very touchy (the brush just tends to pull the paint around reather than stick to the lacquer, etc...) and time consuming. Was hoping to be able to apply some sort of wood stain that would dry out completely and not bleed up into the paint.

    What about those "Aniline Water Stains" (the ones that come in powder form that you mix with water or alcohol). Would they serve my purpose?

    Thanks,

    James

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    SE PA - Central Bucks County
    Posts
    37,808
    James...one of the benefits of using de-waxed shellac as a sealer is that virtually anything will stick to it...even polyurethane varnish which doesn't even like to stick to itself...

    You will have the same issue with the "Aniline Water Stains" as you are already experiencing; maybe more so given they are soluble by both water and alcohol.
    “Never raise your hands to your children, it leaves your groin unprotected.” - Red Buttons

    If you want your spouse to listen and pay strict attention to every word you say -- talk in your sleep...

    Be safety conscious. 80% of people are caused by accidents.

    Equestrian Sports. The most fun you can have with your boots still on...


  9. #9
    Thanks!

    I will see if I can find that de-waxed shellac. Maybe at LeeValley.

    James

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Southport, NC
    Posts
    2,959
    >> I am trying to avoid having a sealer between the stain and the paint

    So, why not stain, apply shellac and scuff sand the shellac with 320 paper? Then do your painting and then apply the lacquer.

    Bette, I would think, is to stain, paint then apply the shellac and then apply the lacquer. It's the lacquer affecting the painted areas that is causing the problem. Either establish a barrier between the stain and the paint or between the paint and the lacquer. My preference would be the latter.
    Howie.........

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Lafayette, IN
    Posts
    3,725
    I'm not sure that shellac will solve the problem, either. It will be a thin barrier coat, but it, too, will be susceptible to the solvents in lacquer (some lacquer thinners contain alcohols of various types, not to mention acetone, ketones and others). I think you probably just need to forego the lacquer and switch to a waterborne poly--which can be a very durable surface.
    Jason

    "Don't get stuck on stupid." --Lt. Gen. Russel Honore


Similar Threads

  1. Acrylic Paint over Wood Stain?
    By Jim Farrow in forum Project Finishing
    Replies: 2
    Last Post: 02-23-2007, 9:58 AM
  2. Hot Water Tank / Woodworking (1 of 2)
    By Boyd Gathwright in forum Off Topic Forum
    Replies: 15
    Last Post: 02-04-2007, 11:49 PM
  3. Protect any wood from a little water?
    By Aaron Beaver in forum Project Finishing
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 09-05-2006, 1:47 PM
  4. Water Based Lacquer
    By Bob Reda in forum General Woodworking and Power Tools
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 10-02-2004, 11:01 PM
  5. water borne/water based finishes
    By Wolf Kiessling in forum General Woodworking and Power Tools
    Replies: 7
    Last Post: 07-01-2004, 12:18 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •