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Thread: RESOLVED: I was trying to avoid posting this - General jointer damaged by ???

  1. #31
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
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    Albuquerque, New Mexico
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    10,701
    Do I understand this correctly? Whenever we take delivery of a piece of machinery we are to uncrate and perform a complete inspection? Do the trucking companies really want this? I bet it took 45 min. to uncrate my MM bandsaw. I can’t imagine the trucker standing around for 45 min watching me do this.

    I think Old Dim is trying to pull a fast one.
    “ Freedom is the last, best hope of earth. ” — Abraham Lincoln

    Please help support the Creek.


  2. #32
    Sounds like you're moving in the right direction. For future purchases that are shipped common carrier remember to do the following. ALWAYS write on the ticket that you sign " ...... possible concealed damage". You will ALWAYS find a scrape,cut,scuff,ding, gouge, ect on the crate. So you write on the ticket "crate gouged (or whatever) possible concealed damage". No matter how minor just write it on the ticket!
    Building Inspector, CBO

  3. #33
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Bloomington, IL
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    4,248
    Quote Originally Posted by Scot wolf View Post
    Sounds like you're moving in the right direction. For future purchases that are shipped common carrier remember to do the following. ALWAYS write on the ticket that you sign " ...... possible concealed damage". You will ALWAYS find a scrape,cut,scuff,ding, gouge, ect on the crate. So you write on the ticket "crate gouged (or whatever) possible concealed damage". No matter how minor just write it on the ticket!
    This is an awesome post. I almost feel like I was taking a gamble each time I just signed the sheet. On my planer the crate had one corner literally broken (Delta crating on this huge stuff is simple 1x2s stapled to form a see through slat box). I just signed because I could see nothing wrong at all with the planer or wrapoing around it - guess the simple crating box at least allowed me to see the product. I will definately take this advise though - Thanks again Scott - great advise.
    Glad its my shop I am responsible for - I only have to make me happy.

  4. #34
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Byron, IL
    Posts
    609
    I can appreciate that Redmond is trying to work things out, but why should it have taken this much effort on Gary's part.

    When I got my Griz jointer a couple of years ago, the cabinet base was dented to the extent that the whole machine would rock from side to side. There was absolutely no indication of damage on the packaging anywhere. Of course, I had signed off on it.

    When I called Grizzly, their response was to apologize profusely and ship out a replacement, no questions asked.

  5. #35
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Trinity County California
    Posts
    729

    General Jointer

    Bruce, the point is you can't easily open everything up. But if you make a notation on the waybill (also called Bill of Lading) of any scuff, dents, dings on the crate you give yourself leverage for further damage discovered on complete unpacking.

    The driver will wait while you give a visual inspection to every corner of the crate and pallet exterior. Five minutes at most. And - heaven forbid - if the driver drops the crate or otherwise manhandles it, write down "Possible damage from rough handling". This is language that these folks understand.

    Gary Curtis

  6. #36

    They-redmond should rectify this problem.

    If they won't take care of the problem- call general- see if you can't make some progress with them- doesn't look like you will be buying any tools from Redmond - That's all they need to hearm doesn't look good all the way around. I hope you can get some peice of mind and get this resolved - You are right about checking your shipped items- not that you can't get this resolved, but it makes the process less messy . You spend your hard earned money to buy a piece of machinery and no one wants to take responsibility for any problems that may come up- redmond better wake up- I am right behind you- all the way!
    Regards,

    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Herrmann View Post
    I posted a few weeks ago that I purchased a General 8" jointer and and a General 14" planer on sale at Redmond Machinery.

    What I didn't post was that the jointer arrived damaged. I had assumed that either Redmond Machinery or the shipper (Old Dominion Freight Lines)would make it right for me. That was my 2nd mistake. The broken off piece was not in the crate.

    I don't like rants. I am ranting, but I'm also posting it so some of you can learn from my mistake. Examine everything you order in minute detail before you sign for it. Dismantle the crate while its on the truck if you have to. Do NOT sign the form unless you are 100% certain no damage has occurred.

    I've ordered 6 machines and had them shipped - 3 from Redmond. This is the first time I've ever had anything damaged. Lesson learned.

    Following is the email I just sent to Redmond Machinery.

    XXXX,


    Brian

    Old Dominion has also denied my claim. I find it hard to believe that the shipper denied my claim merely because I accepted the jointer. I accepted it because I didn't see the damage while it was in the crate, or I wouldn't have accepted it in the first place. Now the shipping company tells me there is no evidence of breakage occurring during shipping. So, with both companies involved denying responsibility for the breakage, the consumer has to just deal with it.

    I find that to be completely ridiculous and unacceptable. Granted I got the jointer at a good price, but the damage will affect the price at which I am able to sell it in the future, should I ever decide to do so. It also affects the smoothness with which I can adjust the outfeed table. I selected the General jointer for its quality and that quality has been compromised.


    I've purchased 3 machines from Redmond Machinery. Clearly, I am going to have to be very careful of who I order from and who ships me my tools in the future, or I will just have to buy locally.

  7. #37
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
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    Albuquerque, New Mexico
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gary Curtis View Post
    Bruce, the point is you can't easily open everything up. But if you make a notation on the waybill (also called Bill of Lading) of any scuff, dents, dings on the crate you give yourself leverage for further damage discovered on complete unpacking.

    The driver will wait while you give a visual inspection to every corner of the crate and pallet exterior. Five minutes at most. And - heaven forbid - if the driver drops the crate or otherwise manhandles it, write down "Possible damage from rough handling". This is language that these folks understand.

    Gary Curtis
    Thanks Gary, this thread has been most enlightening!
    “ Freedom is the last, best hope of earth. ” — Abraham Lincoln

    Please help support the Creek.


  8. #38
    All this may be moot due to the time that has passed but - The LOML does shipping, returns and claims for a living and has for a dozen years or so. Her take is that if there is no visible damage to the carton (and it is a sealed container meaning nothing could fall out) and missing/broken parts are not in the container when opened; any independent freight inspector (that OD should have sent out) would write in their report that the unit was shipped damaged.

    Obviously such damage should be reported immediately (concealed damage has a 15 day limit to report even if the freight was signed as 'clear'). One would ask the shipping company to make a notation on the delivery receipt to the effect that concealed damage was discovered.

    You also have 9 months to file a freight claim with the freight company but sooner is better than later. You would then have to make the jointer available to them as a salvage pickup and they 'should' pay you the amount of your invoice plus the original shipping charges. This assumes they have determined the unit was damaged prior to shipping and there will be an investigation as they will be reporting it to thier insurance company who will involve thier own investigator.
    All in all a big pain and she deals with this stuff every day (I love my job, I love my job). I would have your credit card company hold payment until this is resolved. I would research any avenue but your last resort is small claims court. I hope some of this helps.
    Last edited by glenn bradley; 06-11-2007 at 11:15 PM.
    “If liberty means anything at all, it means the right to tell people what they do not want to hear.” -- George Orwell


  9. #39
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Lancaster, Ohio
    Posts
    82
    Gary,

    Let me make a couple of assumptions first.

    You purchased a "floor Model" from Redmond at a reduced price.

    Because the jointer was a floor model Redmond's staff crated the jointer for shipment.

    The photo at the beginning of this post is a picture of the jointer as it sat in the crate that Redmond packed it in.

    If the above statements are true then here are my observations. The jointer was not packed correctly for shipment. The jointer should not have been shipped with the center section and the tables mounted to the base. The entire top of the jointer, center section and tables, should have been removed from the base and placed upside down on the bottom of the packaging and the base should have been packed seperately. This is how my jointer, not a General, was packaged. It appears that the shipping crate was built so that the ends of the tables were supported by wood members attached to the bottom of the crate.

    Now here's where I believe the problem came from. The wooden support that runs from left to right on the bottom of the crate does not appear to be thick enough to support the weight of the jointer without flexing. If a fork lift or pallet jack were to be placed under the crate the forks would be on either side of the jointer's base. Once lifted, the bottom support would then bow down in the middle forcing the ends to flex upward. This upward pressure then forced the ends of the tables up as well, causing the crack in the casting of the table.

    In my opinion whoever crated the jointer did an inadequate job of protecting it for shipment and should be responsible for making good on it. If what I have stated is "true" then Redmond should do whatever is necessary to make you whole. While I would not expect them to replace your "floor model" with a "new" jointer, I would expect them to replace all of the damaged parts or else take the jointer back and refund your money.

    Jim

  10. #40
    Gary

    The jointer wasn't packaged correctly from Redmond. For that type of jointer the bed assembly needs to be removed from the cabinet and packaged seperately. During transport (or being loaded with a fork lift) the tables were stressed on their ends stressing the casting and tweeking the cabinet (motor damage you note). Redmond owes you a new machine, this one is toast (you need infeed and outfeed tables, new cabinet, and a motor swap).

  11. #41
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Southern, CA
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    569
    Quote Originally Posted by Bruce Page View Post
    Do I understand this correctly? Whenever we take delivery of a piece of machinery we are to uncrate and perform a complete inspection? Do the trucking companies really want this?
    It does not matter what the trucking company or the hourly driver says or does, if he wants you to accept the item he will wait. Once you sign the bill of lading its now your responsibility and the trucking company is off the hook for claims unless noted on the lading.

    I have over 20 years managing a warehouse for a community college and I see damaged freight on a daily basis. 15% of my small delivery drivers, DHL, UPS, Fed-x Home, Fed-x Ground are damaged. Fed-x Express maybe 1% will be damaged and believe it or not USPS maybe 1%. Freight carriers its in the range of 60%, yup 60% of the freight I see is damaged. Out of the 60% of freight its 30% the manufacturers bad packing and not properly securing items the way they should be.

    I check in everything on this campus from cadavers to robots. The other day a $270,000.00 CNC machine came in and yes the driver helped me uncrate and inspect the item to make sure nothing was damaged. I bet he was here for 25 minutes.

    Once you sign the lading its your unless otherwise noted. Never REFUSE any shipment then you have nothing to bargain with against the vendor IF it is damaged or if there is missing items.

    When you are ready to sign the bill of lading always sign and print your name, add the piece count and date near your name. make sure you have a copy of the bill of lading. If you see any damage to the crate, box, pallet, wrap, etc you mark it down. if you hear any noise in the package mark it down. You have every right to open and inspect anything you sign for. Any claims must be filed with the VENDOR not the freight company within a few days. It is not your responsibility to deal with the frieght company. You are the consignee not the shipper. I will often mark down "subject to inspection" if the packaging is pristine but I hear noises inside even if I look inside and see no damage. I also write down "subject to piece count" if the bill of lading has tons of small pieces like hundreds of items. Always look at what the lading has for count. It may say pallet count and piece count. Then sign for what exactly you see, pallets or pieces or both or write any remark you feel is neccesary.

    I sign for 3-7 million dollars worth of freight each and every year. Every damaged item I deal with gets handled 100%. I know claims adjusters on first name basis and the best protection for damaged freight is pictures. Remember freight claims companies are third parties and they have no interest in ripping you off. My digital camera is ready on my desk waiting for a truck to show up and that one thing always wins when it comes to the claim, pictures.

    Always remember that freight companies do not make money on the deliveries only the pick ups. Deliveries just waste money on fuel and drivers wages.

    Just because the driver handles this truck all day he is only incharge of getting the freight off his truck by 2:30pm so he can begin his pick ups. You are incharge of the package since you paid for it so do what you need to do to settled your mind that everything is correct before he leaves.

    Now drivers DO NOT have to help you move the product and place it in your shop. If the bill is prepaid FOB that means the driver will help unload from his trailer but thats it. Some compnies have a 50 ft. rule on how far they will move items from their trailer. Also weight is a major concern if the driver will help you unload. If you did not ask for liftgate delivery and your item weighs in over 300 lbs on a regular trailer then good luck getting the driver to help you by hand.

    Attitudes go far when it comes to drivers and receivers. I can tell how a drivers attitude will be towards me by the way he drives up to my whse and the way he walks even before he speaks one word to me. They can have some serious chips on their shoulders and if they give you any lip about anything, then tell him to leave and DO NOT SIGN for anything but copy down the pro number from the package. Trust me he will be back with a smile on his face since he does not want to work around your item in his trailer when doing pick ups. Or if you like call his dispatch and tell them what you think about that particular driver.

    CYA and DTA are words to live by when dealing with freight...
    Last edited by Ted Miller; 06-12-2007 at 11:49 AM.

  12. #42
    Join Date
    Sep 2006
    Location
    Southern, CA
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    569
    Geez, Forgot to add in my long winded blowhart post that the items I see damaged in this thread look to have been done prior to packaging. If the outer packing material was in pristine shape then the vendor is at fault here.

    Consealed damaged happens all the time but this case it looks to be the vendors fault IMO.

    Not one time in my life have I seen a freight company repack a damaged item they damaged. Yes I see clear tape on many things that drivers use to fix a box that is open. But recrate something, no way...

  13. #43

    I agree with Steve

    Yes! The ends should have been removed from the cabinet- I thought that was a little strange to have it arrive pre-assembled. I don't think Redmond wanted to waist the time disassembling or didn't think about the part stress in transit- absolutely! Go back to Redmond’s!
    Brian

  14. #44
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Yardley, PA
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    98
    Best of luck to you, Gary. That is a real drag. It makes my stomach hurt just to look at it. I can imagine how you must feel.

    I definitely think someone should take care of this for you. I would expect that I should be able to return something if I'm not happy with it. I think the same should apply to machinery.

    I tried the credit card thing once. My bank told me that since I received the merchandise, they could not issue a charge back. I had to work out a return to the vendor before they would allow the charge back. The plan was that I would send it back requiring a signature on delivery and then use that as proof that I was not in possession of the merchandise. Luckily, the vendor agreed to a refund at that point.

    As mentioned in this thread, the bank is on your side and should work with you on a solution, if it gets that far. Merchants do not like charge backs and it's in their best interest to prevent one, if possible.

    Best of luck to you. Keep us informed - all 18,000 of us!
    The day you think you know everything will be very same day you stop learning.

  15. #45
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Whitney Point, NY
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    139
    Ted,

    As far as longwinded blowhard posts go, I rather enjoyed it!

    Very informative.

    I've been ordering a lot of LTL delivered items for my home remodel and I've been surprised at the amount of shipping damage incurred. Luckily, the supplier was specific about how to receive items -- inspect, document, etc. -- so replacement items were no problem. But even some of the replacements arrived damaged! Funny almost.

    Another surprising thing... the drivers were all great, and seemed to be on my side (they blamed their warehouse). One suggested I run and get my camera. He called his dispatcher and described some of the packages as total losses (a generous assessment actually, since they weren't that bad).


    Anyway, your post reinforces a lot of good points, thanks!

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