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Thread: RESOLVED: I was trying to avoid posting this - General jointer damaged by ???

  1. #16
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    Manchester, England
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    63
    Quote Originally Posted by Lloyd McKinlay View Post
    The piece not being in the crate (which I assume didn't have any holes poked in it) leads me to believe the damage occurred at the factory. If true, your complaint is with General, not the retailer or shipping company.
    If this is true, it shows a very interesting difference between English law and US law.

    Over here, your contract is with the retailer alone. No matter that damage may have occured at the factory before packaging, it is the retailer who must sort it out or risk being sued by the customer.

    If the shipping is arranged by the retailer, any claim you may have for damage in transit is against the retailer. It is his responsibility to claim from the shipper, with whom he has the contract.

    I suspect that this is actually also the case in the US

    Cheers
    Brad
    Last edited by Brad Naylor; 06-05-2007 at 2:50 AM.

  2. #17
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    Oct 2006
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    Bloomington, IL
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brad Naylor View Post
    If this is true, it shows a very interesting difference between English law and US law.

    Over here, your contract is with the retailer alone. No matter that damage may have occured at the factory before packaging, it is the retailer who must sort it out or risk being sued by the customer.

    If the shipping is arranged by the retailer, any claim you may have for damage in transit is against the retailer. It is his responsibility to claim from the shipper, with whom he has the contract.

    I suspect that this is actually also the case in the US

    Cheers
    Brad

    In this case the machine was on display at the dealer. It was crated and shipped out by the dealer.

    Shipping claims are the same here in the states. Most people have not processed a claim though and think because they pay insurance it is for them. Not true.

    Another issue is that over estimating the value of an item (say the value of the item new vs. true value of the used item you are buying) for insurance does nothing to help you. The responsibility of the insuring shipping company is to pay the shipper an amount of money that equals the value of the item or the amount of money required to repair the item to the condition in which the item was shipped. Age and wear and tear of the item are factored in. (for my claim I was required to have estimates done since the value was over $200 but that was with UPS) You do not automatically get the $$ for a new item especially if the item was used. I learned the hard way.

    In all of this the shipper is supposed to make good the original contract with the buyer.
    Glad its my shop I am responsible for - I only have to make me happy.

  3. Unless the written agreement (the "contract" in layman's terms) expressly states that the "risk of loss" (in those terms precisely) lies on party X; the risk of loss always changes from the seller to the buyer when the item is placed in the bailor's custody (the trucker).

    The risk of loss can be transferred from the Buyer to the Bailor if the Bailor fails in his duty to reasonably provide shipment or storage or whatever his duty is.

    The up shot of this is that when you are paying for a nice expensive piece of machinery you should never - ever - not ever - take the position that the dealer is a stand up company or that the trucker is responsible and that if anything goes wrong that they will take care of you. You should always take care of yourself and get an insurance rider for the shipment and safety of the item.

    Most equipment sellers will make such insurance available and your home owner's policy can have a rider added in very short order. It's usually just a phone call to set it up and it's not expensive.

  4. #19
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    St. Louis
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    3,349
    I'm going to call Redmond today and give them a chance to make it right for me. If they don't, I'm calling my CC company to begin the dispute process. Thanks all for your input.
    Where did I put that tape measure...

  5. #20
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Monroe, MI
    Posts
    11,896
    My experience has been that the credit card company considers the consumer to be in the right if they don't feel they got what they paid for. I would suspect that this will get taken care of in short order going that route.

  6. #21
    Join Date
    Dec 2006
    Location
    Haddam Neck, CT
    Posts
    181

    Bbb

    Don't forget the better business bureau. I had a problem with my veterinarian and they provided much more help than American Express. They're the ones that ultimately went to bat for me, not the credit card company. It's a simple process. Make sure you cc anything you send to the BBB to all parties, including General. I felt like the perceived threat was the most valuable. I called a lawyer near me and posed the question, then added his firm to the long list of cc's (I never actually sent the lawyer anything, I just felt like it was more threatening with his name attached to the letters). I even contacted my local news stations' 'Undercover' units and cc'd the vet. But I digress...

    In the end the vet probably got 20 letters from me plus having to deal with the BBB. Judging by the number of letters she had to send to the BBB (she cc'd me on them), her headache was caused by them. American Express demanded a single paragraph from her.

  7. #22
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Gold Canyon, AZ
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    40
    BBB +1 (they have been a wonderful ally to me when efforts with the retailer failed), in addition to the credit card co. I hope Redmond steps up to the plate. As others have said, I hope that they make things right with this. Best of luck to you.

    Gary, from your photo of the crate: If it was shipped on the pallet like that, with the supports on the table ends. It appears that the pallet was not rigid enough to prevent putting extreeme stress on the ends of the tables if the pallet was lifted from either end. Not knowing how the crate/pallet looked originally, I may be way off. However, it might be helpful for Redmond and General to see how the jointer was crated, by Redmond. I would also be curious as to how General crates the machines for shipment (assembled or not, and how the tables are supported and the construction of the pallet. Again best of luck to you.
    Last edited by Paul Libby; 06-05-2007 at 11:17 AM.

  8. #23
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    decatur, ga
    Posts
    97
    I have been to Redmond and the folks there are really great. Last time I was there they were trying to clear out all their General and General International products. The market wasn't there for them. I am guessing they no longer have a great relationship with General, so it may be tough for them to find you a replacement bed. That being said, I do think it should be up to the retailer to send you an new bed, no matter what it costs them.

  9. #24
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    North Hempstead, TX
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    379
    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Cutler View Post
    Personally. I believe that Redmond should be sending you a replacement bed. If the broken piece wasn't in the crate,and it was sold as new by Redmond. Redmond should make good on it.

    I've always been leery of the shipping aspect of the sale. You're right about the inspection, and just how much time is the shipper willing to expend while the customer is dismantling the crate and inspecting everything, all the while the driver is cooling his heals and getting behind schedule. What happens if it is damaged? Who recrates it? you or the driver?. The last crate I had to dismantle wasn't going back together.

    I hope everything works out. It bites when you finally get something you've been waiting for, and it's broken.

    Good Luck.
    If there isn't any sign of visible damage to the crate itself I don't think the driver is going to let you near the crate with a hammer to take it apart to inspect inside the crate. Most of the time he's delivering the item, and as long as there is no visible external damage his job is done. The shipping company didn't pack it for them, seems to me it's a Redmond problem.
    "And remember, this fix is only temporary, unless it works." - Red Green

    THIS THREAD IS USELESS WITHOUT PICTURES


  10. #25
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    St. Louis
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    Breaking news...

    I heard back from Redmond Machinery today. I don't mean to take advantage of the system, but after examining the jointer tonight I found a couple other things. First is the email from my salesman, then my response.

    It seems like he intends to do the right thing. I guess I'll have to wait and see what happens.




    Gary,

    I have spoken to my Old Dominion representative as well as the guy in charge of OS&D at our local terminal and they have both told me basically the same thing;

    When shipping freight, it is the receivers responsibility to inspect all packages for damages in the presence of the delivery driver,

    Any damage discovered or concerns about possible damage must be noted on both the driver’s and receiver’s copy of the bill of lading,

    Because no such notations were made, your delivery was considered complete without damage. Old Dominion has apparently determined the damage to your machine to be “concealed damage” and, as far as Old Dominion is concerned, the damage could have occurred before it was shipped (which I know is not the case) or after the driver left (which you know is not the case). This is why, as it was explained to me, your claim was denied.
    However, my Old D representative has recommended that you resubmit the claim. She said that in cases such as this many claims are automatically denied, but that if the claim is resubmitted – the claims department may pay, or at least negotiate, the settlement. She is also trying other avenues to facilitate the claim.

    In the meantime, I will be glad to order the replacement rear table and have it shipped directly to you from General. As I stated in one of our previous correspondences, I will be billing this part at Redmond’s cost. However, I will hold the bill until the matter with Old Dominion is completely resolved. At which time I will absorb any cost that is not paid to you by the freight company, even if they do not pay you anything. I do ask that you resubmit your claim and make your best effort to negotiate full restitution. Because you signed for the machine without notation of damage, my hands are tied and I can not file or negotiate the claim myself.

    Just so that you know that we at Redmond are concerned about our customer’s satisfaction and that we try to turn situations like this into opportunities to improve, I will be creating a large label to be placed on all machinery shipped. This label will inform the receiver of the need to inspect for all damages prior to signing for the machinery. Damages in shipping have been very rare for us over the years, and claims this difficult have been even rarer. Hopefully, this label will help keep situations like this from developing again.

    Please confirm that the “rear table” is the only replacement part you are in need of and I will get it ordered and shipped as soon as possible.

    I am sorry that my vacation delayed this process even longer. Please call me if you have any questions or concerns.

    XXXX





    XXXX,

    I spent an hour this evening closely examining the jointer. I found the following things:

    1. The broken section of cast iron on the outfeed table (which you know about)

    2. The infeed and outfeed tables cannot be made parallel. One of the tables is twisted. Using a straight edge and feeler gauge, the closest I can come to parallel is when the outfeed table is.01" (one hundredth of an inch) lower than the infeed table on the side closest to the guard and .006" higher than the infeed table next to the fence. I assume this twist is due to the impact that broke the cast iron off the outfeed table, but am not sure.

    3. There was a great deal of vibration when I started the jointer. I finally identified the cause. Please note the attached pics. The arbor on the motor pulley is rubbing against the door. The end of the arbor is abraded from contacting the door the two or three times I've started it. Again, I assume this is due to the impact to the jointer that broke the outfeed table but am not sure. Even with the door open, there is excessive vibration. It is possible a motor mount has been damaged. Considering how hard the impact would have to be to break off a piece of cast iron, it isn't unreasonable to assume it could also damage a motor mount. Clearly, it moved the motor.

    I cannot get a nickel to balance on edge when the jointer is running (even with the door open). I can balance a nickel on edge on the General tablesaw and planer when I start them, running and stop them.

    What are my options? Replacing the outfeed table will fix the broken cast iron and may eliminate the twist in the tables. However it won't solve the problem with the pulley arbor, and I am not going to leave the door open when the jointer is running in the future.

    I've already spent a great deal of time attempting to tune up this new jointer. I don't want to have to spend hours on it each time we replace one part.

    What are we going to do about the pulley arbor? Clearly the motor has become misaligned.

    What are we going to do if replacing the outfeed table does not eliminate the twist in the tables?

    I'd like to know your recommendations before I resubmit my claim.

    Replacing the jointer will definitely eliminate any of these problems.


    I can be reached at work at 8888888888 if you want to talk tomorrow.

    Gary
    Attached Images Attached Images
    Last edited by Gary Herrmann; 06-11-2007 at 8:36 PM.
    Where did I put that tape measure...

  11. #26
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    Bloomington, IL
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    Call the CC company and dispute. Do it now before you end up with this charge. Tell Redmond to send the freight truck back - you have a return.

    You bought a "new" jointer.
    Glad its my shop I am responsible for - I only have to make me happy.

  12. #27
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    St. Louis
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    3,349
    I opened a dispute about a week ago. I think that may have started the ball rolling.
    Where did I put that tape measure...

  13. #28
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
    Location
    Monroe, MI
    Posts
    11,896
    I agree--get the process started with the CC company and make sure he knows it. Tell him that you are doing so because the bill is coming due and you know they will work it out before it becomes necessary to have the charges reversed. It will take some time with the CC comapny and if you wait too long you are more likely to have trouble.

    Never mind--I see we posted at the same time.

  14. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Christof Grohs View Post
    The statistics below show that there are 18,000+ members at this site who have the potential to read your post about the damaged equipment. Those 18,000 people probably all have one or more friends they might talk to about buying woodworking equipment...thats 36,000+ people. Redmond or Old Dominion probably does not realize how powerful the internet is or maybe they just don't care. It seems they should make this right, a positve post about them is much better than a negative one.
    Make that 18,001 !

    " I don't like rants. I am ranting, but I'm also posting it so some of you can learn from my mistake."

    I think you are putting this forum to good use, and doing it in a reasonable manner, so I would not call this a rant, but a warning. Thanks for posting.

  15. #30
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Location
    Trinity County California
    Posts
    729

    General Jointer

    I was sad to see your predicament. I just retired from FedEx, and though I worked in Flight Operations, I know a bit about motor carriers and freight. You, the receiver, have to protect yourself when the item is delivered by inspecting as best you can. Right while the driver is present. And in writing.

    When I bought my General tablesaw a year ago, the dealer instructed me to do the same. We were standing in front of my saw in its crate and I asked him, "How do I do that when the contraption is boxed up in wood and cardboard?" He said to look for obvious signs on the outside -- dents, scuffs, holes poked in the cardboard, distressed wood on the pallet. And to make a notation of that on the drivers waybill copy.

    Once down on paper, a later discovery of real trouble (when fully unpacked) is substantiated and won't be disputed. I feel your dilemma because in my case, the pallet took 3 days to uncrate - saw and sliding table weighed 1,000 lbs. I didn't see anything on the exterior and worried about the inside and what was hidden.

    As to General's standards for shipping, I just got a look at a competitor. I went to a WW seminar at Felder in Sacramento calif. For lumber to build a front door we used the pallet from a 1300-lb Felder sliding tablesaw. In comparison, the General pallet and restraints were robust. Your dealer was not on the job for not giving you this warning about inspection. It is standard, according to the really nice FedEx driver who brought my half-ton beastie. Largely because some stuff does get damaged, at least cosmetically. And because buyers bang up a new machine in their own shop trying to manhandle equipment without a forklift or a pallet jack. And they want someone else to pay for the damage.

    To your dealer, fixing the problelm is 2 phone calls and a few emails.

    Gary Curtis

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