wood for bending

[John Piwaron]

I've another question regarding bending wood. Steambending, not laminations.

I'm looking through the Veritas steambending guide and note they say to not use kiln dried wood for steambending. Use air dryed.

Well, where I live, Milwaukee, kiln dried is a lot easier to get, at least with my limited experience for wood buying. I always get my wood at Kettle Moraine hardwoods.

Why would the Veritas guide say that? Is it impossible to use wood that's been kiln dried?

If so, does anyone here know where to buy green or air dried in SE Wisconsin? BTW, I've already looked on woodfinder and note that there aren't many places listed there that offer green or air dried.

[Steve Inniss]

John,
In Wisc. or anywhere you should be able to get white Ash or Oak cheap or free from a local utility, roads dept, landscape co. or sawmill. Green wood is much easier to work and steam bend. You can also air dry the tenon pieces longer than the wet mortises. That will produce a very tight joint. Also green wood, that you have cleaved will break along the grain naturally - and be stronger than pieces cut from boards.

As far as air vs. kiln dried: Kiln dried wood just doesn't bend as well as air dried. It certainly not impossible - just harder, and you've already paid extra for having it kiln dried. It's probably wise to soak it first.

Canoe or chair?

[Carl Eyman]

I used to live in the Town of Lisbon on Hwy K about 2 miles east of Arrowhead High School. There was one guy who had a portable sawmill nearby and would cut wood to order. He is probably too old to stillbe doing it but there must be others. For starters I'd call the various high school wood shop instructors at the outlying schools and see if yhey know of someone. The instructor at Arrowhead seemed to be knowledgeable that way. Try Oconomowoc, Hartford, Kettle Moraine, etc. I'll be axxious to hear how you make out. Send me a pm if you want to try to trace my sawmill guy.

[Tom Stovell]

Contact the manufacturers of the different bandsaw mills to see if there are any locals to contact.

Depending on what you are making you may have some luck with a firewood supplier...I've purchased 4-5' logs here on several occasions.

A friend of mine buys straight-grained oak, rips it on a tablesaw and then steam bends it for his Windsor chair parts. He breaks a good percentage, but doesn't have the time in the parts as you would if riven and shaped by hand.

If you do use KD stock I would steam it for twice as long as 'recommended' for the thickness. I wouldn't even bother to soak it as the absorption may not be worth the time.

Good luck with your project.

Tom

[Bob Smalser]

http://www.sawmill-exchange.com/index.htm

http://www.mobilemfg.com/

http://www.baileys-online.com/

http://www.woodmizer.com/welcome.html

http://www.powersources.com/timberwolf/?43,62


Check the phonebook and the mill manufacturers/sellers for portable sawmillers locally. The mill builders are happy to provide names of local guys who own their mills. Local tree service guys will know of them, too. Few advertise.

A whole number of arborists or their employees run their own mills to salvage something more useful than firewood out of the trees they cut....I know 4 arborists here and each one has a mill somewhere in their firm....and they know guys like me with portable mills they sell special logs to.

Logs don't last stored on the ground...they get beetles...usually they are cut immediately and stacked and stickered. All that stuff you hear about leaving your logs on the ground for a year to "season" is bunk...it doesn't season at all, merely degreades....once milled, stacked, stickered and covered, it will last indefinitely that way.

I'm not in the sales business, but I have 200k BF stacked and stickered as we speak....the stack yard consumes a whole half-acre....the lumber is spoken for until my current projects are done...but I do have excess. 1X9’s 2X4's and 2X2's, for example, are a byproduct of making 2X6's and larger....I have plenty of 1X9’s and 2X4's to sell and you can fill your pickup bed with 2X2's and culled utility wood while you are here gratis. And I'm not unique.

And personally, I would prefer green wood for my projects even if I didn't have a mill...it's much cheaper...the 5/4 stock will dry over one summer...once airdried it can be moved inside if you need interior wood under 10pct M/C....and it gives you so much more flexibility to use a green board for that difficult bend that fails with kilned stock.

But my experience is limited to my locale...dunno what ground truth is in other regions...but I bet it's worth a shot to check my sources out.

[Todd Burch]

I don't know why the Veritas guide says to not use kiln dried, other than there is less chance for bending failures.

I've bent a lot of wood, most by boiling (thin stock), and some by steaming. I always prepare (or at least have on hand) extra stock in case of a bending failure. The key here is to steam, steam, steam, and when you think it is ready, steam some more.

I've attached a picture of some steam bent white oak I used for a bug box I made for a niece several years ago. A pretty tight radius, about 2½" to 3", I think, for 1/2" wide x 1/4(+-)" thick kiln dried stock. I used a long stick, and cut it to length after it dried in the form. You get better leverage with a longer stick.

With any wood, the grain needs to be fairly straight and watch out for knots, grain twists or other inclusions.

If it were me, I would use what I had on had, and learn from my success or from my failure. Todd.

[David Rose]

John, I saw that information too. I am about to do my first steam bending and I've compiled literally 100s of pages of info from the net. It could all be condensed into about 20 pages. I'll try not to write it all here. Note: I have no experience with it yet! I really don't like to write something with which I have no experience but since most benders agree on most points, I will.

In that instruction Lee Valley says some things that basically disagree with most of the other bender's info. You got one. Another is that grain direction doesn't matter. A third is that soft woods can't be steamed effectively.

Most of the folks say to steam for approximately 1 hour per inch of thickness. Over steaming is as bad as under steaming. They also say to allow 20% failure rate for a beginner with a little higher failure on kiln dried wood. Many (not most) benders say bend quarter sawn wood for the highest success. And many canoes and boats are/were made from some soft woods.

I think Lee Valley wrote what they did so new folks would not be discouraged by failure.

I'm going to try to bend some Western Red Cedar, which no one mentions. Ugh! But several other types of cedar have been used in boats, so maybe...

David

[Mac McAtee]

Wood is an insulator. It has lots of small cells that trap air and keep heat from penetrating. If the wood has been dried the cells are empty. If it is still green or air dried not to well then the cells have water in them. That condition transmits heat more readily and that is what you are trying to achieve when you steam it. You want the steam you are applying to the outside of the piece to cause the water that is trapped in all those cells to heat up. If the wood has been air dried then the steam you apply to the outside takes a very long time to penetrate into the cell structure and heat the cellulose up enough to allow it to bend. The hot cell structure actually slides along beside each other when you bend. If it is hot enough that is. If not hot enough then they don't slide and the wood breaks. When the cellulose is hot and the cell structure slides to a new position when you bend, then it cools down the cellulose locks together again in that new position. That is why the wood retains the bend when it cools and you need to hold it in that shape until it cools.

[harry strasil]

My 2 cents worth--- My expierience bending wood is limited to the repair and restoration of small antique wooden wagon wheels using the old traditional hand methods. According to the old technical manuals I have collected, and thru actual expierience, kiln dried wood is brittle and will not bend without breaking around anything but a large diameter form. air dried material after steaming will almost let you tie it into a knot, I also flex the wood both ways before actually forming around the prepared form and clamping. Steaming also has a tendency to facilitate the curing or drying of the wood.

attached is a picture of a small 100 + year old childs wagon running gear that has been restored, the wheel rims are one piece steam bent ash for the back wheel and hickory for the front wheel. the wood was salvaged from a land clearing opperation by the dozer operator for me and was split in half and stored in my basement shop for a year.

sorry- the file is too big and I have no way of reducing the size.

[John Piwaron]

attached is a picture of a small 100 + year old childs wagon running gear that has been restored, the wheel rims are one piece steam bent ash for the back wheel and hickory for the front wheel. the wood was salvaged from a land clearing opperation by the dozer operator for me and was split in half and stored in my basement shop for a year.

sorry- the file is too big and I have no way of reducing the size.

Feel free to email me the pic, I've got a broadband connection to use.

[Tom Stovell]

John,
All kinds of information here as to your bending project. What is it that you are making or where does this bent wood fit into your project? I think with a bit more of an understanding of what you need the replies could be tailored to your particular need.

Tom

[John Piwaron]

Thanks for all the info so far. Feel free to post anything else about this. I also wish to point out that I'm a hobbyist, not a pro.

I'm mostly at the stage of gathering info. That isn't to say that's all I've done, I've acquired some steambending stuff from Lee Valley which of course includes that instruction guide. Since I'm mostly self taught, I'm looking for a handle on this.

There's two kinds of chairs that have my interest right now. Windsors and the Brian Boggs style shaker ladderback. The Boggs chair looks to have a not too severe bend on the rear posts along with a really gentle bend towards the upper end. Then there's the matter of the three slats. I've found all the articles he published in FWW and Woodwork.

The bending of the rail for the seat back of a windsor looks a lot more challenging. There's a class at the local Woodcraft I'm taking in March that should teach me a lot more about that.

I've got the Langsner book about chairmaking. He strikes me as a lot closer to the Roy Underhill school of building than the Norm way of doing it. I've also got Mike Dunbar's book about windsor chairmaking.

Because I live within a major metropolitan area, I don't have friends with woodlots and at this time there's no local yard to go to to get either logs or green wood. The sources pointed out, woodmizer operators, landscape contractors and so on look promising. I'll certainly check them out. I'll also check with Kettle Moraine about obtaining wood in the green state so I could at least bring it home and air dry it in my garage. Yes, I know that it requires sealing the ends and stacking and stickering. Of course I'll be looking for particular species (oak, ash, cherry?) so this might be a bit hit or miss on availability through a landscaper or somesuch. Personally, if I'd try a Boggs chair I'd like to use maple. I'm thinking the bend on the rear posts isn't so severe to prevent that wood from being used, plus there's no seat to carve since that's done with hickory bark or shaker tape.

Any other advise? Am I going off half cocked or in the wrong direction?

[John Piwaron]

I don't know why the Veritas guide says to not use kiln dried, other than there is less chance for bending failures.

I've attached a picture of some steam bent white oak I used for a bug box I made for a niece several years ago. A pretty tight radius, about 2½" to 3", I think, for 1/2" wide x 1/4(+-)" thick kiln dried stock. I used a long stick, and cut it to length after it dried in the form. You get better leverage with a longer stick.

With any wood, the grain needs to be fairly straight and watch out for knots, grain twists or other inclusions.

If it were me, I would use what I had on had, and learn from my success or from my failure. Todd.

I agree they're probably concerned about budding woodbenders becoming disheartened if they get a lot of failure. I'm clear on why green or air dryed is preferable. Ditto grain direction.

Nice bug box. I'm sure your niece loved it. It's just too cute.

[Tom Stovell]

John,
I have had good success bending red oak for my Windsors. Even if allowed to dry out, the structure of the wood, in my experience, allows the piece to be readily steameded and bent. (Ash, white oak and hickory* are some other species that bend well). Again, look for folks selling firewood and ask them about saving a 4' log.

I made my first Windsors about 15 years ago and there is quite a bit more information out there now with the added benefit of the internet. I have read several articles about bending with compression straps and think this may be a great addition to the task. If you haven't visited the Windsor Resourse page, you should go take a look. You can also get the subscription to Dunbar's newletter for a while without taking a class.

Good luck with your project and keep us informed.

Tom

[Bob Smalser]

L/V sure ain't where I'd go for advice on steambending.

I've been a wood boat builder on and off my entire life....use airdried wood at 20pct M/C...make sure there is no grain runout (that's why many of us own sawmills)...and build a generator and steambox powerful enuf to steam your wood quickly.

Sheet styrofoam makes a great temporary steam box. The best generators are made from old oil-heat furnace burners with a water tank welded on top using diesel.

Assuming you're doing half-3/4 inch stock....steam it hard and pull a piece out evey half hour to test on your caul. Wear gloves.

Most long-grained native woods bend OK given fast enuf heating/steaming. Ash, elm, all the oaks, all the cedars and all the hemlocks bend easily. Doug Fir, the spruces and some others are a little tougher but doable.

If you only have kilned stock, jam it under your dock floats in the pond for a week before steaming.

Log on to the Woodenboat Forum and use the search feature...you will find everything you need and more.

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