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Thread: Where are your tools made?

  1. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by Don C Peterson View Post
    I shouldn't do this... but if I had been the cautious sort I never would have become one of Uncle Sam's Misguided Children... "Semper Fi, do or die!"



    Are you sure you don't mean "hold up American workers"? ...and yes, I can.

    I'm proudly non-union now, but for years I worked for UPS. The Teamsters did nothing for me except extort money and hold me back. Union rules made it nearly impossible to promote anyone for performance. You were just told to stand in line and shut up. I worked several other union jobs in my life and found the same story each time.

    I was forced to come to the conclusion that unions primary function is to provide a nice living and lots of influence to the bosses (and their underground "affiliates"), and act as a blanket to smother initiative and promote mediocrity.

    Most unions are profoundly anti-competition. If a company needs to reorganize a union makes it very difficult to do so in any kind of sane way. Instead of getting rid of underperformers while keeping and rewarding those who deserve it, union rules almost always force them to get rid of the newest first. That's assinine and it's no way to remain competitive.
    Don - I don't disagree with you and I'm certainly not a union advocate. But remember why we have unions. There was a time when labor was treated pretty badly and it's only because of unions that we have decent employee treatment today. Even companies without unions treat their employees decently because they don't want unions.

    The problem unions have is finding a way to allow performance based promotion - their fear is that the employer will promote anti-union people and hold back pro-union people, which would eventually lead to the destruction of the union. And the union doesn't want to get in the business of ranking the employees. How would they do it? The only ranking that counts is the value to the employer.

    I absolutely agree that union work rules often hinder productivity, and having to lay off by seniority instead of performance when bad times occur doesn't help the company recover. But it's hard to see an alternative for the union that doesn't destroy it.

    Mike
    Go into the world and do well. But more importantly, go into the world and do good.

  2. #47
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    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Gibbons View Post
    If and I mean IF.. everyone for the next four years bought nothing but traditional American cars the economy would take a extreme upswing because the demand would go up so high they would have to hire all the people back that took buyouts and then some.
    I think they tried this in the Soviet Union a while back without much success. Lack of competition breeds mediocrity...

  3. #48
    Ha! What a "can of worms"! Are you just bored or something? Trying to stir up a little action? The truth is, with a "global" economy such as the one we have now, there are very few things actually made in America. And even the stuff that is incorporates parts or materials (switches, motor windings, steel cast iron parts, etc.) that are imported. The computer I'm working on right now is "made" by Apple in Cupertino right? WRONG! Not one bit of is made here. If you want pure "made in America" stuff these days, you are going to be buying very few tools or anything else for that matter.
    David DeCristoforo

  4. Made in America

    Made in America. That saying is now an oxymoron! There are so few products fully produced in the USA.

    Don't blame me if your factory has closed and your job has been shipped overseas.
    Blame the CEO's, the Politicians in DC and your state for wasting away taxpayer money.

    CEO's only care about their stock options and will cut the production costs down to a minimum. Labor costs are usually the first and easiest to trim. Stock options for Management would be the last item to be cut.

    Politicians are in the CEO's pocket, so they will pass any law to make outsourcing of US jobs sound like the US is reaping all of the benefits.

    How can US workers compete with a foreign workforce that is willing to shovel "you know what" for pennies a day.

    This trend in outsourcing jobs to cheaper labor pools started in manufacturing and has now spread into the mid level management.

    Now the government is trying to allow more foreign workers into the US to cheapen the US labor pool.

    Many of you creekers are in the construction field, in your own business.
    How are you going to compete against a competitor who hires these foriegn workers and pays them below union scale.

    Now don't blame me for buying Festool, Fien, Bosch.

    I buy quality tools because, I only want to buy the tool once!
    I buy Honda because of their repair record, I fix my own car.
    Last edited by Dennis Peacock; 08-28-2007 at 11:29 PM. Reason: edited post for verbage correction.

  5. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Henderson View Post
    Don - I don't disagree with you and I'm certainly not a union advocate. But remember why we have unions. There was a time when labor was treated pretty badly and it's only because of unions that we have decent employee treatment today. Even companies without unions treat their employees decently because they don't want unions.

    The problem unions have is finding a way to allow performance based promotion - their fear is that the employer will promote anti-union people and hold back pro-union people, which would eventually lead to the destruction of the union. And the union doesn't want to get in the business of ranking the employees. How would they do it? The only ranking that counts is the value to the employer.

    I absolutely agree that union work rules often hinder productivity, and having to lay off by seniority instead of performance when bad times occur doesn't help the company recover. But it's hard to see an alternative for the union that doesn't destroy it.

    Mike
    Like most major social revolutions, unions were an overblown response to a situation that was improving on its own. After all, working in a factory in a city was preferable to toiling on a farm, hence the great influx of people to the large metropolitan areas. Let's face it, by today's standards, life everywhere back then sucked! However, life was improving faster in the city than it was in the country. Ironically it was those improvements in life that allowed people the luxury of becoming dissatisfied with their lives. As a result, many embraced policies that slowed the rate of improvement...

    As a response to the response (...round and round we go...) some busineses overreacted to what they (rightly) saw as a threat. I think it is no coincidence that the focus is always on the "brutality" of certain businesses rather than the thuggery and socialist and anarchist roots of the unions. Both sides were engaged in sneaky, underhanded, and sometimes brutal behavior.

    We could probably have a long discussion on the history of unions, but whatever the historical rationale or function were, the net result of unions TODAY is overwhelmingly negative.

    You are right, promotion or rewards based on merit would destroy unions. So unions don't so much have a problem figuring out how to allow it, their problem is how to avoid it completely. The two concepts are fundamentally incompatible. The premises upon which those two paths are built are diametrically opposed, and there is no way to reconcile them.

    Like all forms of collectivisim, unions cannot afford any sort of meritocracy, all must be treated the same (some being more equal of course...) and we'll call it "fairness". "Fairness" being equality of outcomes, without regard to individual ability or effort. In my book that isn't fairness, it's oppression.

    I can't sell my stuff for what Frank Klaus, or Sam Maloof, or James Krenov, or you for that matter can/did. Since that's "unfair" I need to form a union, force them to join, or quit. Of course, "fairness" would dictate that my comparitvely inferior and ugly creations bring the same compensation as theirs. There would soon be no Maloofs, and even my current level of ability would probably soon be seen as a waste of time.

    And yes, I do believe that the choices are that stark. It's just that most folks I talk to don't realize the kind of assumptions and foundational principles are implicit in their "feel good" emotionalism.
    "History is strewn with the wrecks of nations which have gained a little progressiveness at the cost of a great deal of hard manliness, and have thus prepared themselves for destruction as soon as the movements of the world gave a chance for it." -Walter Bagehot

  6. #51
    Don, I don't know what else we would agree or disagree upon but your last two posts in this thread were absolutely right on the money with me. Very well said.

    Bruce

  7. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Don C Peterson View Post
    Like all forms of collectivisim, unions cannot afford any sort of meritocracy, all must be treated the same (some being more equal of course...) and we'll call it "fairness". "Fairness" being equality of outcomes, without regard to individual ability or effort. In my book that isn't fairness, it's oppression.

    I can't sell my stuff for what Frank Klaus, or Sam Maloof, or James Krenov, or you for that matter can/did. Since that's "unfair" I need to form a union, force them to join, or quit. Of course, "fairness" would dictate that my comparitvely inferior and ugly creations bring the same compensation as theirs. There would soon be no Maloofs, and even my current level of ability would probably soon be seen as a waste of time.

    And yes, I do believe that the choices are that stark. It's just that most folks I talk to don't realize the kind of assumptions and foundational principles are implicit in their "feel good" emotionalism.
    I am the last person who would normally defend unions but if you're going to critisize them I think you need to get your facts straight.

    First of all most unions do accomodate differentiation based on skill level; maybe not enough but certainly not everyone in a particular union is paid the same.

    Secondly, unions were not formed to address your example above with the creation of artistic works. Historically, unions were formed when workers were exploited. For a good example compare the number of coal mining deaths in the US today with those of China. Without unions or some other external influence there is little pressure on companies to improve working conditions for manual labor.

    Greg

  8. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Funk View Post
    I am the last person who would normally defend unions but if you're going to critisize them I think you need to get your facts straight.

    First of all most unions do accomodate differentiation based on skill level; maybe not enough but certainly not everyone in a particular union is paid the same.

    Secondly, unions were not formed to address your example above with the creation of artistic works. Historically, unions were formed when workers were exploited. For a good example compare the number of coal mining deaths in the US today with those of China. Without unions or some other external influence there is little pressure on companies to improve working conditions for manual labor.

    Greg
    I was in the Union and everybody was paid the same.
    External pressure on companies = OSHA
    Gary K.

  9. #54
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    Re Unions,Cars

    I agree with you greg. Great craftsmen like Krenov,Maloof, Klaus, will always be able to sell to those who can afford their prices. Unions have their good points and bad. But in our society people have the right to bargain collectively. America is a great place!
    Re: Cars. Really the most important issue is fuel economy, not country of origin. We all need to be buying the highest mileage cars we can afford. (Unless you tow a boat, or have a large familly).
    Just my two cents,
    Dave
    Last edited by Zahid Naqvi; 08-28-2007 at 11:19 PM. Reason: removed text with political undertones

  10. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Funk View Post
    I am the last person who would normally defend unions but if you're going to critisize them I think you need to get your facts straight.

    First of all most unions do accomodate differentiation based on skill level; maybe not enough but certainly not everyone in a particular union is paid the same.

    Secondly, unions were not formed to address your example above with the creation of artistic works. Historically, unions were formed when workers were exploited. For a good example compare the number of coal mining deaths in the US today with those of China. Without unions or some other external influence there is little pressure on companies to improve working conditions for manual labor.

    Greg
    You cannot possibly equate mine workers of the 19th century in a free society with the virtual slaves of a repressive communist regime. The former may have had a very limited number of options (by our standards) to choose from, the latter have one, obey and shut up or die.

    The most powerful "external" influence to improve the lot of workers (or almost any other positive change) is competition. I contend that the formation of unions actually did much to slow the pace of the improvement that was already occurring. The credit that unions get is largely the result of a very effective and sustained propoganda compaign.

    As to your other point, I agree that my example was not the most apt, but I was working off the cuff... and almost all hypothetical constructions fall apart at some level. The point that unions are antithetical to rewards based on merit is indisputable.
    "History is strewn with the wrecks of nations which have gained a little progressiveness at the cost of a great deal of hard manliness, and have thus prepared themselves for destruction as soon as the movements of the world gave a chance for it." -Walter Bagehot

  11. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck Lenz View Post
    Interesting statement Dwain, but I don't know of any American made tools that are sub par these days, if there are, it's probably because they have some imported parts in them.
    OK, nothing personal Chuck, but you've made a couple simplistic statements that just don't wash.

    My Powermatic 64A is made in Taiwan. Pretty good saw, though I'm not "wowed" by it. But what really let me down w/ PM were two things:

    1. The AccuFence (made in AMERICA, complete with red/white/blue flag) that came with the saw was welded up so crooked I could see it immediately. It was unusable.

    2. So the seller sends me another one (made in the USA of course). The tailstock on this one is welded up such that it angles inward and won't fit over the rails. Again, so badly that I could immediately see what was wrong just looking at it.

    3. The third time was the charm, and I got a fence that works. What wasn't the charm was PM's pathetic customer service; just getting them to even say "gee, we're sorry you are without use of your new saw for a month" was like pulling teeth. I even gave them a second chance when considering a bandsaw. I wrote them a letter stating my concern over QC issues and wasn't sure I was comfortable with another PM product. Never heard a word back. So they are off my list for future purchases.

    You'll also note that FWW's review of cabinet saws showed the PM66 didn't have nearly as good QC (tolerances) as the PM2000 made in Asia.

    So there you have it; American company and their American product with serious flaws. Get over the notion that American products are always better; its a fallacy.

  12. #57
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    Re: Cars. Really the most important issue is fuel economy, not country of origin. We all need to be buying the highest mileage cars we can afford. (Unless you tow a boat, or have a large familly).
    Just my two cents,
    Dave[/quote]



    What in the world has this got to do with this thread



    Gary K.
    Last edited by Zahid Naqvi; 08-28-2007 at 11:21 PM. Reason: removed text with political undertone

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    Very well said Henry.

  14. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Don C Peterson View Post
    You cannot possibly equate mine workers of the 19th century in a free society with the virtual slaves of a repressive communist regime. The former may have had a very limited number of options (by our standards) to choose from, the latter have one, obey and shut up or die.

    The most powerful "external" influence to improve the lot of workers (or almost any other positive change) is competition. I contend that the formation of unions actually did much to slow the pace of the improvement that was already occurring. The credit that unions get is largely the result of a very effective and sustained propoganda compaign.

    As to your other point, I agree that my example was not the most apt, but I was working off the cuff... and almost all hypothetical constructions fall apart at some level. The point that unions are antithetical to rewards based on merit is indisputable.
    Competition helps companies become successful but it does nothing for workers when they are performing relatively unskilled functions which don't require a long training period. You don't have to go back to the 19 century to find examples of companies who will abuse and exploit their workers. Just take a look at any sawmill in the last 50 years. The accident rate is several orders of magnitudes higher than what most office workers would tolerate.

    The only time companies are motivated to improve conditions is if there are external controls (unions/govt regs) or if there is a shortage of labor. But since most of the jobs in a sawmill don't require much training there is an ample pool of labor who can perform the work. Those individuals often need someone to represent their interests. In many cases they are helpful in creating a 'middle class' which is not a bad thing for society.

    And to stick to the original topic my tools are made in: USA, Canada, Germany, Japan, Italy.

    Greg

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    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Funk View Post
    Competition helps companies become successful but it does nothing for workers when they are performing relatively unskilled functions which don't require a long training period. You don't have to go back to the 19 century to find examples of companies who will abuse and exploit their workers. Just take a look at any sawmill in the last 50 years. The accident rate is several orders of magnitudes higher than what most office workers would tolerate.

    The only time companies are motivated to improve conditions is if there are external controls (unions/govt regs) or if there is a shortage of labor. But since most of the jobs in a sawmill don't require much training there is an ample pool of labor who can perform the work. Those individuals often need someone to represent their interests. In many cases they are helpful in creating a 'middle class' which is not a bad thing for society.

    And to stick to the original topic my tools are made in: USA, Canada, Germany, Japan, Italy.

    Greg
    Competition helps everyone. We all start off with few marketable skills. It is market competition that guides many of our decisions on which skills we should acquire. Those who ignore these market signals do so at their own peril.

    Also let's not forget that many of those who pursue more dangerous jobs often do so intentionally. An office job, no matter how well compensated would drive them nuts.

    Sure unions do benefit those who can't be bothered to learn a more marketable skill or to lazy to apply the skills they have to the greatest effect. Those with valuable skills and the drive to use them, are invariably hurt by unions whether they know it or not.
    "History is strewn with the wrecks of nations which have gained a little progressiveness at the cost of a great deal of hard manliness, and have thus prepared themselves for destruction as soon as the movements of the world gave a chance for it." -Walter Bagehot

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