SCMI and Felder overall quality

[Trevor Hughes]

Hi, I am a new member and this is my first post. I am finally in the market for a 10' slider and have found a great amount of conflicting info regarding the quality of the Felder k700 and the SCMI Nova 300.

Both three phase machines with 10' carriages. The SCMI is approx $700.00 more which is still ok because I'll be leasing anyways. I have always known SCMI to be a good solid product but have not heard any real testimonials. The Felder appears to be a fine machine with their x-roll system, but this is a fairly recent innovation and has not seen the test of time like the traditional ball bearings and steel guides.

Both sales reps claim that 'their' machine is better and I have heard that the Felders may be increasing their prices in 2008 from 8-14%. I am posting here to get the 'real' truth from those that have actual working knowledge of either saw. Besides sheet goods I process alot of hardwoods and will be using the 10' slider as a straight line rip saw prior to gluing up my panel stock. Comfort is also a consideration for the odd amount of actual ripping I would need to do on the rip fence.

Any information that could help me make an informed descision would be appreciated! Thanks in advance.

[John Shuk]

Just a question and don't want to hijack your thread but has anyone looked at the Powermatic sliders?
http://www.toolking.com/products/110...tprice=1791286

[Charlie Plesums]

I am not familiar with the SCMI Nova 300, but I have MiniMax equipment - MiniMax is the "small shop" subsidiary of SCMI. I have been extremely pleased with MiniMax equipment and support (although the amount of support required was extremely small).

The Felder "700 line" was the second place competitor in my selection with attractive features and reputation. It was substantially more expensive than the comparable MiniMax. The Felder appeared to be a very good machine, but IMHO like a BMW - maybe a little smoother but a lot more expensive, and more complex, and perhaps more touchy - all the Felder folks I talked to said to be sure to hire the factory guy to set it up rather than trying to do it yourself. I prefer the simpler machines that are easier to adjust if necessary, and don't require a factory repairman for everything.

I have heard rumors that Felder has had to replace a number of their X-roll sliders. I have not heard of any MiniMax sliders having to be replaced, and can't imagine a smoother operating slider.

Looking at the Felder advertising, it appears that they are focusing on the 900 series on the high end, and on a new line on the low end. Thus I was a little surprised to see the 700 line in your question.

[Charlie Plesums]

Just a question and don't want to hijack your thread but has anyone looked at the Powermatic sliders?
http://www.toolking.com/products/110...tprice=1791286

I looked at a Powermatic slider at IWF a couple years ago - I don't know if it was that one. It appeared to be a table saw with a slider bolted on as an afterthought. As it was set up, an 8 foot panel would barely clear the cutting teeth (it should have been longer). It appeared so dangerous that the booth babess (well, guys) and I tried to set it up differently to see if we could make it appear safer... it was extremely hard to set up and adjust. So I just gave up, and bought a saw that was designed as a slider "from the ground up."

Powermatic has a reputation for good equipment, so may have solved the problems I saw a couple years ago... but I would look carefully.

[James Reichman]

I'm in the same boat. I'm looking for a slider as well. Looked at every saw I could. Went back and forth for a long time. I had a heavy favorite for awhile. But when I layed it's foot print out on the shop floor she was just to big. Now looks like the MMs315ws is going to be the choice.
You seem to be doing your home work. All I can say is. The shop I work at had a MM sc3 for about 10 years. It worked like a champ. That saw went to another shop in our area. It still is putting out some real nice work. We maintained the machine well (cleaning&lube). and the new owner does so as well. Was at that shop last week asked the new owner how is she doing he could not be happier. And it still looks like new.
For me this was a big factor. I looked at Felder Hammer and 700 series. But the little voice inside my kept saying go with what you know has proven itself to me.
Good Luck,,,,,,,A S315 for me it will be..

[Bernhard Lampert]

Both are certainly good saws. I don't think you can go wrong with either one. I do not have any experience with the SCMI, but I have 4 Felder machines (CF700P series, bandsaw, horizontal mortiser and dust collector). I would buy any of the machines again w/o hesitation. The x-roll table on my 10' slider is phenomally smooth and accurate.
You may post your question on the FOG (Felder Owner Group) on yahoo and you will get an honest assesment. IMHO, the Felder offers the best price to value ratio. Better hurry, with the drop in the dollar, most European machinery will increase by 10-20%.

Good luck!
Bernhard

[Jim Becker]

I don't know that you'll find much experience with SCMI here, but there are a bunch of us with MiniMax products. (I own the S315WS slider and am very pleased with it) Given that SCMI is a more industrial offering, I'm also curious as to why you're looking at the Felder 700 series rather than the more top-end 900 series products.

Oh, and welcome to SMC!!

[Steve Rowe]

Trevor,
I had a Felder CF741SP combo with the X-Roll system. I just recently sold it to go the separates route. In the 3 years I owned the machine, I never had one single problem with it. The X-Roll system was great and frankly is a bit smoother than most sliders. The guy that bought the CF indicated it was smoother than the Altendorf he was looking at. I have never heard of any of the x-roll sliders having been replaced as Charlie indicated. You may want to join the Felder Owners Group (FOG) on yahoo groups. I would ask each of the sales reps if they can provide a customer reference near you to check the machines out first hand.

Felder custom builds the machines which has pros and cons. Unless you find a floor or show model that fits your needs, you are likely in for a 3-4 month wait. I suspect the SCM machine is probably stocked in a standard configuration so the gratification is likely to be more immediate. On the plus side, Felder has a number of options that are really nice (also pricey) that are not available on most machines. One is the remote start on the end of the slider which is great if you handle a lot of sheet goods. Another thing to watch is Felder has some options that are standard on other makes. Just make sure you are comparing apples to apples on these machines.

Felder ships the larger sliders off the machine. This means mounting the outrigger support arm and 300# sliding carriage on the machine and the alignment process. I wanted to make sure it was right and given my unfamiliarity with the machine at delivery, I had the commissioning service performed. Once set up, it never again needed adjustment. As mentioned above, the FOG is very active and a very good source of support. One of the members also wrote and published an Unofficial Survival Guide which contains information that you can actually use to adjust your machine (unlike the owners manual) if necessary.

Hope this helps,
Steve

[Bernhard Lampert]

Forg0t to mention one more thing, that was an important selection factor: Felder offers a bunch of add-ons for their equipment that can be added later on once needed. For example, a while back I bought a miter gauge that clamps on the slider. It is a nifty piece: It will calculate the correct angles for boards of different width, compensating for lengths. It is great for making frames, large and small.
Also, I have never heard of any x-roll table failures as mentioned in a previous post; that would have been a huge discussion on the Felder Owner Group on yahoo (BTW, FOG is not associated with Felder).

Cheers,
Bernhard

[Trevor Hughes]

Thanks guys for the input! I too have a piece of Mini Max machinery. It is the Mini Max Sp1 Planer which I am thoroughly pleased with, the tersa knives are a cinch to change and 'snipe' no longer exists in my shop! Beautiful finish! I have the SCMI single comination head 37" wide belt which is a high prescision piece of equipment, very happy with its absolute reliability and quality of finish. Overall the Italian SCMI has such a good track record and from experience operating an older 70's era SCMI saw at a local cabinet shop I have no doubt as to its quality.

The Felder sales rep in my area has been promoting the 700 series for their local distributorship and I feel that perhaps their claims of quality may go beyond what the 700 series is capable of. No doubt it is a very good machine with good testimonials on the fog site. However, am I correct in assuming based on the input here that the 900 series would be a more accurrate quality comparrison with the SCMI Nova?

The Felder rep told me that their machines were competing head to head with Altendorf, but the more I think about it, it is probably the Kappa series that is competing with Altendorf. The 900 series with SCMI and the 700 series with Mini Max. Would that be an accurrate assumption?

Thanks again for all your input!

[David Less]

Seems that every time someone is looking at a Felder, they are having a price increase. They may be pricing their equipement out of the market.

David

[Paul B. Cresti]

Trevor,
Unless things have changed (which I doubt) the MM Formula line is equal the new SCMI Nova line. It is my understanding that both lines are made by SCM just with a slight different twist here and there to make them "different". I still own a MM Formula S35 and it has worked well for me. I do believe the Formula line will cost you less so that may be a plus for you. It is no secret that I have lots of "issues" with Felder but hey that is just me (well not really) but lots of other folks do like them.

I no longer keep up to date on all the changes these companies go through but up to early this year Felder only offered a double trunion saw set up in their 900 series on up. (I think they added it to the 700's now??) The MM s315, all Formula and SCMI always had double trunions (I even think this has changed to now include most of MM Technomax line and some of their Elite S models???)


It is all too confusing and I really do not care anymore as if I could do my work with a lowly Unisaw before I sure can get by with my "less than top of the line" S35

[Bernhard Lampert]

Seems that every time someone is looking at a Felder, they are having a price increase. They may be pricing their equipement out of the market.

David

All European manufacturers will have a substantial price increase for the coming year. Look at the Dollar vs Euro exchange rates, increase in energy and steel costs. Heck alone the exchange rates will account for about a 22% increase.
I am just glad I am pretty much set with my shop for large equipment.

Cheers,
Bernhard

[Scot Ferraro]

The 700 series did get the new trunion system this year and I believe that this puts the 700 series in a more "industrial" class of machine. The 900 and Format lines are Felders upper line of equipment and there are many parts and components that are shared across all of the lines of machines (the X-roll slider is the same on 500, 700, 900 and Format series; the motors are the same across all lines from Hammer up, etc...). With each series of machine that you move up you seem to get larger capacities and some other "bells and whistles" included that would be options or not available in the lower ranges. For example, I have been researching shapers recently and I have found the a lot of the basic components on the machine are the same (motors, electronics, machine chasis, etc...). For differences the Hammer and 500 series has a 7" hole in the table, the 700 series jumps to a 9 inch hole and the 900 series and Format 4 is over 12 inches. The trunion system is similar on the Hammer and 500 series whereas the 700 and up have the new double trunion and the quick-change spindles with increased ranges. While I know that this is discussing "shapers" it gives you an idea of how Felder distinguishes between it's lines. There are similar differences in capacities and what's included on each line of sliding table saws (including size of blade, HP of machines, how automated everything is with height and angle adjustments, etc...). Whether this is worth it or not depends on your needs.

As others have mentioned, there is going to be a price increase at the end of the year (the dollar vs. Euro is a big reason). Felder has some pretty good deals right now for some stock items they are trying to move as well as some floor models so you might luck out and get a machine equipped how you want at a somewhat discounted price and if you order before year-end you can lock in the lower prices.

Good luck with your decision.

[Trevor Hughes]

Thanks again for the input. I thought I would add an update. I ended up buying the SCMI Nova 300. Very similar to the technomax but still a little heavier and beefier overall. I am very happy with it as the prescision is a quantum leap from the old Delta unisaw that I've used for the last 10 years or so. One pleasant surprise was the fact that I received a $1000.00 tooling credit upon purchase. I bought 6 blades plus scorer, and two boxes of sanding belts for my wide belt for free. That felt good! (This saw is going to be another $1000.00 or more come the new year as well.)

The main difference between this saw and the Technomax is the arbor size. The Technomax has a 5/8 " arbor whearas the Nova has a 30 mil arbor. The Technomax also allows for dadoing and the Nova does not. I moved my old unisaw onto the catch side of the slider and built a table to incorporate both saws. Now I have dado capability and an ultra high quality saw. Straight lining Black Walnut is a very smooth operation with this saw. I'm very satisfied.

Thanks again for all your input.
Trevor