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Thread: Don’t do it! Why newbies should NOT start with old planes.

  1. #1

    Don’t do it! Why newbies should NOT start with old planes.

    I recently bought a #4 off eBay for $26, plus $10 shipping, and, so far, wish I had gone with a new Lee Valley instead. Here's why.

    From a newbie's perspective, it takes a ton of time and significant funds to get it in good usable shape, and without a good reference piece, how do you know if its good?

    I would encourage you to consider the following factors before going down this road:

    1. Rust removal. Any old plane you buy will have rust. How will you remove it? Do you have the tools to do electrolysis? If not, you will have to buy a rust removal product. Budget $15-20 for chemicals, steel wool, and a wire brush. 3-4 hours of setup, soaking, labor.

    2. Flattening the sole. A flat sole is critical to plane function. I had to buy a granite plate ($30), emery paper (60, 80, 120 grit; $5), automotive sandpaper (120 grit; 2 packs $5) , Norton wet/dry sandpaper (220, 400, 600 grit; $5 each); 20+ hours so far.

    3. Blade and chipbreaker. It is likely that your current blade is short and thinner than recommended by most. Replacement blade and chipbreaker ($55 + $10 shipping). Order and wait.

    4. Paint. Some people don’t repaint, but if a decent amount of japanning has worn off, you are going to want to remove and replace it in order to prevent rust ($5 Dremel wire wheel [hope you have a Dremel] and $5 Rustoleum. 5 hrs.

    4. Potential for missing parts. As I have mentioned in another post, the yoke (part of the depth adjuster) on my plane had been modified by a previous owner, so a the chipbreaker would not seat properly. Luckily, a generous fellow creeker felt pity on me and sent a replacement. The fix cost me nothing, but I lost a good week diagnosing and replacing the faulty component.

    Total cost of my #4 rehab:

    $ 36 - plane
    $ 15 – rust removal
    $ 60 – flattening the sole
    $ 10 - repainting
    $ 65 – replacement blade and chipbreaker
    $185

    Now, these are rough numbers. You may argue about any particular figure. You may already have or have plans to buy a granite plate, for example. If you are planning to do large number of planes, you can spread the granite plate cost across the bulk of them. On the other hand, you may need more sandpaper, you may have to repair a broken handle, whatever.

    For a newbie looking for a good worker to get started with, I argue they are better off going with a known ready-to-use tool.

    For example, for roughly the same amount $199, a newbie could buy a brand new Lee Valley Bevel Up Smoother with an A1 steel blade. None of the rehab would be required. Simply hone a 38 degree secondary bevel on the blade (a la Derek Cohen) and boom, and you’re set.

    If the $ cost isn’t enough to make the difference, what about time? Remember, I’m a hobbyist, so I don’t have all day every day. I have a few hours most weekends. To date, I’ve spent at least 40 hours in research, shopping, and manual labor rehabbing my #4. That is easily 5 weekends, really more! AND THE SOLE STILL ISN'T FLAT!!

    Compare that to the 30 minutes it would have taken to get up an running on a new LV. Think of all the wood I could have worked . . .

  2. #2
    Sorry to hear about your struggle, but I couldn't disagree more. It seems this is always a hot topic of debate. Let me first say I am certainly no expert. My plane collection consists of mostly vintage Stanleys(about 35 planes I guess) and a few Lie Nielsons(with a couple more on the way). There is little arguement that a Lie Nielson takes little to no adjustment versus thier vitage counter parts which MAY take much more time. That being said it seems your list is a bit heavy on both time and money it takes to "fettle" an oldie. The two things that stand out to me are the granite and the chipbreaker and blade. First, you really don't have to have a granite plate to flatten a sole. You can use a table saw top or jointer bed with sand paper all the same. Besides that, you can usually find granite scraps from a granite countertop company. I have two sink cut-out pieces and a back splash piece I got for free. Even if you had to pay, they all have "graveyards" with scrap pieces for next to nothing($10?). And the sandpaper I would assume you have on hand anyway, right? I use 120 and 220 and that's it. As for the chipbreaker and blade, a little investigating before your purchase should let you know if there's enough "meat" left on the iron. Personally, I love the Hock iron and chipbreaker but they certainly aren't a neccessity. After all, planes had this set up for how long? If anything you can buy a used blade and c.b. for a few bucks even on fleabay. These two differences add up to about $80-100 less than your figure.
    As for time, it usually takes me about 1 or 2 nights after work(4-6 hours) to completely rehab a plane. That includes stripping, cleaning, sanding, flattening, painting and finishing. And I don't buy ones in good shape by any means. Take a look at some of my old posts and you'll see some of my Bedrock rehabs. The price of those drove me to buy ones in REAL bad shape. 20+ hours to flatten a sole seems like an awful long time.
    All this being said it really is up to the individual. When I first started I didn't have a budget for a Lie-Nielson so this was my only route. Besides, learning what makes these things tick is important to me. Plus I really enjoy it! Maybe you just got a bum plane? Have you ever tried this with any other planes? If not try it with a different one.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  3. #3
    I have a bunch of older planes that I bought on eBay and I never spent a fraction of what you report. And they work fine for me.

    If you want a Lie Nielsen, buy a Lie Nielsen.

    Mike
    Go into the world and do well. But more importantly, go into the world and do good.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
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    Wow.....
    First off, don't buy rust! Spend the extra cash and buy one with good pictures that has at least 80% japaning...and even if it doesn't, a good coat of wax works wonders.
    Second, buy a sweetheart or earlier plane (say..1900 - 1935 or so), in my ramblings they seem to have the truest sole. I also have never had much of an issue flattening the sole: mark it up with a sharpie, run it on a stationary belt sander moving it back and forth across the belt, see where the high spots are and repeat, careful putting it on and taking it off. When you've reached some modicum of flatness re-mark the sole with a sharpie and switch to a piece of MDF with 150 grit spray glued on, be careful to switch sides (left hand, right hand then turn it around and run it backward), then switch directly to 320 grit to knock the edges off. 1.5 hours tops. The sole does not need to be mirror smooth and dead flat to do really good work. God knows my grandad made absolutely beautiful furniture and I'm sure he never even gave the soles of his planes a second thought.
    While it is very nice to own a $200 LVLAS (I love mine) you can still spend around $50-75 and get a really nice Stanley which will do you very well.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by Danny Thompson View Post
    I recently bought a #4 off eBay for $26, plus $10 shipping, and, so far, wish I had gone with a new Lee Valley instead. Here's why.


    I'm going to have to disagree too, but will rebut to each of your points. Let's take my #4 1/2 I bought last month for 12$


    1. Rust removal.


    3$ for citric acid soak. Wipe it off when you're done, wire wheel it. Beautiful. Time is free in my calculation.
    I'm not missing work to work on planes so I don't count it as billable hours. This is a hobby. I do it because it's fun.

    2. Flattening the sole.
    Tablesaw top and some GOOD sandpaper (8$) and the sole is flat in an hour of sweat. If yours is that far off it probably shouldn't have been purchased, OR because you're new at this, you're making it off as you work, or you're trying to get it too flat. There is a point beyond which it's ridiculous to try to flatten it because the variation in the wood is greater than that of the sole.

    3. Blade and chipbreaker.
    If it's got a blade in it and it's got more than half an inch left, it's fine. Worry about a replacement later. THat said, I've never bought one with a stub of a blade left. Maybe i'm lucky. 0$

    4. Paint.
    This is an aesthetic question and entirely optional. 5$ for a can of black epoxy paint. Works great. Spray right over what's there.

    4. Potential for missing parts.
    Do more research and make sure all the parts are there before buying.

    Total cost of my rehabs:

    $23. I didn't paint it. It works as well as any modern plane.

    For you, I think a new plane is probably a better option. I don't have these problems, so I will take all the old ones you don't want. Happily.

    Your point is valid for yourself, but I don't think you can say to all newbies not to do it. Sorry.

    Lewis, I've got to disagree with you too. I've bought some planes that cleaned up gorgeous after the citric acid that you probably wouldn't have looked twice at.


  6. #6
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Conway, AR
    Posts
    399
    Planes I have sold

    $55

    $50

    $85

    $50

    I could go on and on. Nowhere near the price you quote. All will work right correctly. All are very clean. None have been repainted or had their soles monkeyed with to make them concave or convex (as you probably did when you tried to flatten it). If it took so much time and money to fix them up how could I sell them for as cheap as I do??? -Clint

  7. Quote Originally Posted by Danny Thompson View Post
    From a newbie's perspective, it takes a ton of time and significant funds to get it in good usable shape, and without a good reference piece, how do you know if its good?
    This, I think, is the most valid of your points... until I bought my first LN plane I really did not have a good reference for 'good'. There are other ways to get this though... there are many people around who do very good rehab of older planes that can still be bought for well under the price of a LV/LN plane - and many of these will perform fantastically from the day of receipt.

    edit to add: if you would like a recommendation or two for good sources of already-working planes, feel free to PM me.

    Also, some f these items you used (granite plate, new blade/chipbreaker) are really not entirely necessary. I agree that if you are going to spend the $80-90 for a new blade/CB combo you may very well be better off jsut buying a new plane. However, flat-sole obsessive posters notwithstanding, there have been at least a couple of generations of extraordinary work done with standard Stanley blades and CBs. I say they work just fine for most purposes.

    ALso, many of the purchases you had to make for this are items that anyone doing woodwork for any appreciable period of time will acquire anyway... chalking $15 in sandpaper off as necessary only for this project is not very accurate. If you don't have any sandpaper, I submit that you would have bought some eventually anyway. Also, the next ten plane rehabs you do will require the same tools which you now already own.

    Also, please never underestimate the amount you have learned about handplanes from this exercise. The mechanics of how they work, and what is required to make them work well, are lesons that will serve you well, even if you go on to buy a fleet of LN or LV planes.

    Personally, I have bought most of my current bench planes new from LV/LN. I did a few rehabs, and decided much as you have that I'd rather just buy new planes, or very trustworthy older ones, from here on out rather than scour ebay for 'fixer uppers'. I do not kid myself that it was more cost-effective, or necessary, though. I did it because I have a tad bit more moeny than time, and do not much enjoy rehabbing planes. Mostly, though, IO just have a 'thing' for LN planes, and this is a large part of why I bought them. This is a hobby, and sometimes aesthetics count for me.


    I certainly think that buying new tools is a viable, and completely justifiable position to take if you're financially able to do so. If money is scarcer than time or effort, though, or if you are just a frugal, DIY sort to the core (which many many ww-ers are) then rehabbing old planes can be one of the most satisfying parts of this hobby.

    Don't regret what you've done here. If nothing else, you learned an awful lot for what is in the grand scheme of things a relatively small cost...
    Last edited by Raney Nelson; 12-03-2007 at 2:01 PM.

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Central Vermont
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    1,081
    I own planes from Veritas, Lie Nielson, as well as many old stanelys.


    The advantages of buying a new plane from LN or LV is that you can have them up and running in about 15 or 20 minuets out of the box. Even Lie Nielsons need minor tuning to work perfectly. That plane will also be better than a stanely will ever be. This is especially true with smoothers or jointers.


    The advantages of tuning up an old stanely is that you can have a plane that is 90% as good as a LN or LV for sometimes next to nothing.

    I usualy go through about $10 - 20$ worth of consumables. I don't repaint the castings or anything fancy. Some planes flatten out in a few minuets and some take countless hours. Older blades with laminated steel are worth saving, and newer irons are good candidates for replacement.

    I have a Lie Nielson iron and chip breaker in my 5 and a Hock iron and chip breaker in my 6. My 3 still has its orriginal Stanley iron which is fine.

    If you get a plane for next to nothing at a flea market go for it and tune it up and put some cash into it.

    Don't spend $300 on a plane on ebay, a hunrded tuning it, when you can buy a Lie Nielson.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Jackson CA
    Posts
    268

    Used planes

    I have Stanleys 3,4,5 & 7 all bought from Sandy Moss (syndass sloot). These are users in good to good+ condition and at reasonable prices 30-50 ea. Buying from a reputable seller directly, who backs up his product, saves me time and effort and a lot of stress. Planes are sent to me and if they are what I expect, then I send the money.

    In one case, one a brace, one small internal part was missing. I e-mailed Sandy and a replacement part was sent immediately.

    I have some LV planes but as a hobby I enjoy the older Stanley's. Try using a good source and your life will be simpler.

  10. #10
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    Sep 2004
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    Orlando, FL
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    I bought one of the planes that Clint showed and couldn't be happier. I took it out of the box and made fluffy shaving right away. In fact, I have a request in to Clint for a another model when he finds one.

    One comment I agree with is that you should purchase a plane that works correctly so you will know when it doesn't.

    Therefore, I recommend that for a first time plane buyer like myself, buying from a reputable plane tuner such as Clint is the way to go. I would love a LN or LV and will probably buy some, but you cannot beat the price/performance of a well tuned vintage plane, if it was tuned by an expert.

    Jack
    Age and Treachery will always beat youth and skill.

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Mar 2006
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    Rutledge, GA
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    I can see Danny's points, but I have a Fulton same-size-as-a-#4 that was free, not too rusted, using the original iron (sharpened, obviously). Its not beautiful (to other people anyway), but it works well for me. There's a little (ok about a turn and a half) of slop in the wheel, but I'm used to it and don't even notice. I can make fluffy's and not so fluffy's. I'd love a LN or a LV, but I've kind of gotten attached to this one. I say be careful what you obtain, and you'll come out cheap enough and also smarter about planes in general. But if you have the means to get a good one right off, there's nothing wrong with that. I just find them a little too "new", like I need to go ahead and bang it on something to get the shock over with. New or old, just enjoy.

    Dusty

  12. #12
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    I agree with the idea, but do think your price is blown up. Some of what you bought is necessary anyway as you'll have to sharpen blades on a new plane also. I have rehabbed a few planes and have more that I bought new.

    My take on it is that you should learn to use a working plane first, then rehab. Wether the working plane is new or pre-owned/rehabbed doesn't matter. There is a learning curve for using planes that gets extended significantly if you're spending time and effort trying to figure out if your problems are with the tool or user.

    I had a #4 that I bought for $20. I spent a ton of time on it and it still doesn't work as well as others I have. I probably have 20hrs in the sole flattening on that piece of junk. I have a couple other rehab planes that are real nice and work great. Each took less effort than that stupid #4.

    I don't buy planes with serious rust, so no electrolysis necessary. But I do have to clean up some surface rust and usually use 600-grit for that. I don't repaint as I don't care what they look like. In general, I spend about 8-10hrs. and around $40 for a new blade on my rehabs. If I charged my consulting rate, I'd definitely be better off with a new LN. Right now, the planes I use are 2 rehabs, 5 new LVs and 1 LN. I'll only rehab another plane if I get an unusually good deal on a Bedrock.
    Jay St. Peter

  13. #13
    Good feedback, all. Remember, I am not decrying the merits of rehabbing old planes. My point is that I caution against a NOOB going that way for their first worker plane.

    Clint, I remember a post from Zahid or someone naming you as a source, but it was too late for me. Next time I'll know better. Sounds like Sandy may be another.

    I have to say that I am 100% in agreement that it SHOULDN'T take this long and I also believe 100% that it DOESN'T take someone who knows what they are doing this long. But for a noob, especially a somewhat isolated one, it can easily take this long.

    Take for example my yoke problem. It never entered my mind that the previous owner might have soldered an additional bit onto the yoke to accommodate a thicker blade. I struggled for a couple of hours assembling and disassembling trying to figure out what I had done wrong. Slept on it. Figured some more. Finally, I gave up. I got my camera, took some shots, posted them here, and, thanks to all the kind folks here, learned what the problem was. 1/2-1 weekend lost.

    Also take the whole granite slab question. I don't have a jointer or a cast iron tablesaw top--essentially no trusted flat surface. I tried a flat piece of MDF, but no matter how much I sanded, the bottom would not get flat. I had a hollow in front of the mouth and a high spot all the way back on one edge behind the mouth, but, more disturbing, the heel was curved upward. Every posting I have seen says I can ignore the hollow up front, but the heel, especially the edges near the heel, need to be coplaner with the toe's leading edge and mouth.

    You have to remember, Noobs spend a lot of time trying to determine whether it is them or the entry-level equipment. Eric Clapton could make incredible music on my nephew's cheap Stratocaster clone, but I need something that can at least get in tune.

    Now I know a lot of things can account for the curved heel but the two that came to mind were: 1) maybe I was lifting up on the toe at the end of each stroke, 2) maybe my mdf was not true. I did not have a ready source of granite slab, but had read granite tile would work, so I bought a square (Note I left this out of my cost summary). No luck. I tried emery paper. No luck. I traveled to another town that had a Woodcraft, plane in hand, got their input, and walked out with a known sure-as-you-know-where flat 2"-thick granite square and instructions to keep sanding.

    Mike, I really appreciate your perspective and sage advice. And I couldn't agree more that, if you are going for a stable of planes, this is probably the way to go. Particularly if you can get some decent tutelage.

    Marcus,
    1) Citric acid soak and a wire wheel are pretty close to the $15 I calculated, maybe 5 less. I also didn't charge for time, but I should add in time for marriage counseling ("What have you been doing out there all weekend?")

    2) I can say, definitively, that I have spent well over 12 hours sanding on various types of quality sandpaper and emery paper trying to find what works (btw, best so far, 120 grit auto sandpaper, purple). I think you are right, maybe this plane shouldn't have been bought. But how do you know that when you buy off the 'bay and its your first plane ever? Or, then again, maybe it's just because I am new and my technique is flawed. I am willing to take full blame for that. But I would say this is likely with many noobs.

    3) I bought a Type 11 (1910-1918?) thinking I was in good shape with a reliable blade. Sadly, there is only about 1/2" of usable blade left. The plane looked long in the pix. Little did I know that there was a slot all the way down behind the chipbreaker. I could "get by" for now, but for how long. And do I want to struggle with a thin blade? Everything I read says replace it.

    4) Painting is optional. Tru dat. (-$10 if you don't care)

    5) Do more research? I asked the seller if there had been any damage or repairs. The seller said, No. I had already removed the rust and done some initial sanding by the time I understood the problem. That's the kind of situation a noob gets into on the 'bay.

    Other points:

    - If I weren't already a waterstones guy, I could use the slab and a healthy supply of sandpaper for ScarySharp.

    - I do think I learned a lot during this rehab. It was fun in a way. But at the end of the day, I have no workproduct to show for it.


    Of course my experience is not universal, and this can not be a universal recommendation. Some people would have stopped at the $36 and been done with it. On the other hand, it is easy for a noob to fall under the spell of all this ebay/rehab talk. We aspire to be capable neanders such as the fine, helpful, and friendly commenters above. I truly look up to you guys. But I have to remember that I am not there yet; not nearly.

    Rehabbing old planes can be a thrill, I am sure, but I want other noobs to realize what they are in for. It could go either way, and sometimes you are just better off buying what's known. Especially if your desire is to get to the wood.

    True Confessions Time:

    I haven't actually bought the replacement blade and breaker yet. At this point, I am holding off another day. If I don't get the sole flat, I'm done with it. It goes on display (After all, it is almost $100 years old.). If I do get it flat, then I'll replace and move on.
    Last edited by Danny Thompson; 12-03-2007 at 4:30 PM.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Danny Thompson View Post
    I also didn't charge for time, but I should add in time for marriage counseling ("What have you been doing out there all weekend?")
    All good points. I think perhaps your view has been tainted because you ended up with a horror story. My first ebay plane was a killer #7 that needed very little help. On the citric acid bath, you don't have to babysit it. I just plunk em in and do something else - and my wife is usually in the woodshop with me, every night. She carves and turns so no marriage counseling needed except when we both want to use the same tool.

    As for the iron length, you can tell from the pics. It should stick up past the top of the frog and cover some or all of the lateral lever. But noobs wouldn't know that so you can't be faulted for missing that one.

    If I don't get the sole flat, I'm done with it. It goes on display (After all, it is almost $100 years old.). If I do get it flat, then I'll replace and move on.
    If you can't get it flat I'll volunteer to try. I use a big belt sander now when I want to flatten them. Takes a minute or two.

    M


  15. Danny,

    I just want to say that I also started using planes in isolation. I had no one to demonstrate them face-to-face until I'd been at it at least a year. The first few months, which I tend to 'blank out', were VERY frustrating. Full of the sort of experiences you are talking about, not knowing if it was my inadequate sharpening, blade set wrong, and on and on. In hindsight, the majority of the problem was purely the fact that I was at the steep steep first climb of the learning curve. At some point, after not TOO long, I started to notice that I was getting some pretty decent planed surfaces... then I got a couple more planes, and lo and behold I actually felt comfortable setting them up and they worked pretty much straight off.

    Unfortunately, like many things in life, there is only so much that can be done to shorten this period. There is a lot going on - new ways of looking at wood, and at tools, not to mention 'muscle memory' - all of which is at first very overwhelming, but through all of that the process is doing its work. Even though this 'experiment' probably seems like a failure, and unnecessary to you I doubt that it is so.

    The idea that you learned a lot doing this is not just some cheesy new-age feel good justification to make you feel better. It's probably quite true, and in a few months you'll look back at this with a very different attitude.

    In the meantime, get a LV plane, or get a plane from Clint, Sandy, WaltQ, or one of the others who's around these boards. Let them know it's your first experience with a 'tuned' plane and they will take very good care of you.




    Besides - After the learning curve, comes the slippery slope. If you think this hurt your wallet, hang on tight

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