Another waterstone/sharpening question...

[Joe Cipriano]

...and Amazon has the Norton 8000 stone (1.2µm grit) on sale for $49.99, if anyone's interested...

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B000H6JDFU

[Wilbur Pan]

John:

Sincere thanks for the info (and the time spent on your post). Following your recommendation on grit progression (and the table Wilbur provided), looks like the best progression would probably be:

Norton 220 (60µm)
Lee Valley 800 (20µm)
Shapton 2000 (7.35µm)
Norton 4000 (3µm)
Lee Valley 8000 (1µm)

For what it's worth, this is what I do. I have a set of Shapton professional stones. I go from 1000 to 5000 to 8000. That has given me a very good edge on all of the chisels and plane blades I've used so far.

One thing about the lower grit stones is that it is relatively easy to put a little bit of a dish in the stone if you don't keep on top of flattening. This in turn will make the part of the tool you are sharpening have a little bit of a bump, which will result in a less than ideal edge and performance from your tool.

I find that I flatten my 1000 grit stone about 3-4 times as often as my 8000 grit stone. This seems to be a function of the lower grit itself -- I find that this has happened with any stone in the 1000 or less grit range that I have tried.

As a result, I tend to use wet-dry sandpaper and a flat surface if I have a tool that need aggressive metal removal, as in getting a nick out or if I am rehabbing a used tool when I first buy it.

In your case, I would definitely skip your 220 stone and maybe even the 800. But that's just me. Looking at the brands you're interested in, you might consider getting a set of Norton 1000-4000-8000 stones, or the Lee Valley 1000-4000-8000 stones, or even the Shapton 1000-5000-8000 if you really want to splurge starting out. I'm not sure how true this is, but some people report better results by sticking with one brand, if possible. To my mind, if you are starting off, sticking with one brand will take out one variable as you figure out what works well for you.

Also - has anyone tried the Norton flattening stone out?

Having a good way of flattening a waterstone is key. Keeping a waterstone flat is essential for getting a good result out of it, and I think it may be even more important than which waterstone(s) you use. Every time I find myself unhappy with my waterstones, if I step back and take a deep breath, it's always been because I haven't been on top of keeping the surface flat. There are lots of ways to keep your waterstone flat, but it doesn't really matter how you do it as long as you do it often enough. However, I would stay away from rubbing two waterstones together to flatten them. It's better to use a dedicated flattening surface.

[John Guarino]

Happy to contribute. I found the area of sharpening to be a jungle. Most prescriptions are true under certain conditions, but different conditions lead to lots of contradictory wisdom. The disagreements could be intense, and personal (lotta egos in there). Marketing hype also contributes -- as I teach graduate and undergrad marketing, the field was having a nice revenge on me.

The key to finding the underlying simplicity was to note that the old timers did great work using simple methods, no microscopes, no manmade stones, no modern alloys, and no deep theory. Yet they must have known what they were doing -- look at their work product.

So 19th century methods set me on the way to a modicum of competence. Simple experiments showed that you can see your mistakes. For awhile I used colored markers and a 30x magnifier that shows everything you'll ever need to see. 30x is overkill; these days I use 6x, sometimes only 2x is plenty. Even for straight razors. And 90% of mistakes can be easily repaired, just give it another go.

It gets in your hands and suddenly you can do it.

[Mark Stutz]

Rather than the coarse waterstones, you might consider the DMT diamond stones. Coarse/X-coarse can be used for initial shaping and nick removal, and can be used to flatten the finer grits of waterstones.

[John Guarino]

That's a good point -- the coarse 220 grit waterstone practically melts in my hand when it meets the alloys. Cuts well, but I replace it more frequently than others.

Mine is down below 1/4 inch thick and it could break apart any day. My 800 is still around 3/4 inch. The 1200 and the polishing stone are near full dimension. All started at one full inch, less than a year ago.

For the rough stuff, diamonds are forever. Forever flat, at least.

[Joe Cipriano]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but shouldn't the flattener have a larger surface than the stone being flattened? I ordered some Norton's, and the Kitayama from JWW - all are about 8x3. Can't afford the $120 for the 10x4 DMT DuoSharp right now (the smaller DuoSharp is 8x2 3/8); however, I ordered Woodcraft's 9x12 granite surface plate - that and some coarse wet sandpaper should suffice for both stone leveling and coarse sharpening.

For $30, I doubt the Woodcraft plate is actually "Tool Room "A" grade" (McMaster-Carr sells a Tool Room "B" grade of about the same size for $88...), but I'm sure it'll be sufficient...

Stones ordered:
Norton 220
LV 800
Bester 2000 (JWW was out of the Shapton, and claims the Bester is a better stone - we'll see...)
Norton 4000
Norton 8000 (On sale @ Amazon for $49.99...)
Kitayama 12000 (I just HAD to have one to play with - maybe I can start shaving with my plane irons, and save money on razors...).

Plus the DMT knife jig and the Veritas Mk. II. I'll let everyone know how things work out.

Thanks to all who responded; the advice is appreciated - whether I followed it to the letter or not...

[Eddie Darby]

I see that you are getting a granite surface plate from Woodcraft.

I would try these sheets on it for the final stages of honing.

http://www.leevalley.com/wood/page.a...04&cat=1,43072

"Superb quality, this plate is 2" thick and 9" x 12" overall. Obviously it is moisture and corrosion proof. It is also accurate to ±0.0001" overall (not 0.001" but 0.0001")." - Lee Valley The cost is $31.50 , so it would seem that the roughly same priced Woodcraft plate ( $30.99 ) could be what they say it is.

"Plate is 2" x 9" x 12", tool room “A” grade with calibration certificate." - Woodcraft

[John Dykes]

I use the Norton flattening stone with my Shapton stones - and have been very, very happy with the results. I struggled on what to use to flatten them with, but the Norton is great.

I should point out that I am pretty new to this...

Regards,

jbd in Denver

[Mike Henderson]

I use the Norton flattening stone with my Shapton stones - and have been very, very happy with the results. I struggled on what to use to flatten them with, but the Norton is great.

I should point out that I am pretty new to this...

Regards,

jbd in Denver

I tried the Norton flattening stone and had a problem. My problem was that the flattening stone did not stay flat - as I used it, its shape changed, and that shape was being transferred to the working stones I was using it on.

What I discovered is that you have to keep flattening the flattening stone on a fairly regular basis if you want your working stones to be flat.

And if you have to do that, you can just flatten your working stones on whatever you use to flatten the flattening stone.

I've tried all kind of things and the best I've found is the DMT extra coarse "stone" for keeping my working stones flat. Flattens fast, last a LONG time, and stays flat.

Mike

[Joe Cipriano]

Originally Posted by Mike Henderson

...I tried the Norton flattening stone and had a problem. My problem was that the flattening stone did not stay flat - as I used it, its shape changed, and that shape was being transferred to the working stones I was using it on.

What I discovered is that you have to keep flattening the flattening stone on a fairly regular basis if you want your working stones to be flat.

And if you have to do that, you can just flatten your working stones on whatever you use to flatten the flattening stone...

Yup, Mike. Figured that one out when I read the instructions that came with the flattening stone. IMHO, kind of a waste of money...

I'll use the surface plate and wet sandpaper to keep the stones flat. The report that came with the plate states that the surface is 2µm peak to valley, which I'm sure is more than sufficient.

[Alan Turner]

I'll throw out a couple of ideas I did not yet see mentioned.

We have the 1000-4000-8000 Nortons set out for constant student use at PFW, and find that due to inexperience, these stones are out of flat frequently, which is the result of not using the entire surface of the stone but only the middle. To flatten the stones, we use a scrap of granite from the dumpster of a local granite counter top shop (free) and lapidary house supplied silicon carbide grit at 80 or 90 coarseness. It is about $5/lb. Use some water, make a mess, and flatten away. Start with your finest stone and keep going right on down to the coarsest. Just keep your eye on the granite with a straight edge and replace as needed.

For lapping chisel backs, for example, we start with a 200 grit lapidary diamond "file" at about $35. Diamonds do wear out, and so the cost can be a factor. They seem to work just fine.

Take a good straight edge to the granite dumpster as not all granite is as flat as one might think.

[John Dykes]

With the recommendations of those here at Sawmill - I checked the Norton flattening stone against a granite plate. The Norton stone is GARBAGE!! - and mine has since been tossed the dumpster.

I broke down for the 100 bones and bought the CMT 10x4 coarse \ xcoarse stone. I'm happy with it... (unless someone guides me better!). It was shocking to see how out of flat my stones were. Bleh...

Point is - listen to Mike and Joe, completely disregard my post.

Regrettably yours...

jbd

[Don Dorn]

This is an interesting thread for me. I'm trying to decide between getting a Jet Wet sharpener, or just sticking with an 800, then 6000 stone. Frank Klausz seems to be fond of using a sharpening wheel on a grinder for the bevel, then using a Japanese stone for flattening and final honing. Mark Adams and Tage Frid just flatten the back, run the bevel on a sander then use a honing compound on a buffing wheel.

Frankly, I'm a little lost and completely confused, but I've really grown fond of working with handtools, but if I can't keep them sharp, that desire will certainly go away.

[Don C Peterson]

My own sense is that no "solution" works equally well for everybody. It took quite a while before I felt at all comfortable that I was using a good system (for me). I'll be the first to admit that my "system" is pretty unorthodox, but I'm happy with the results. I use DMT plates, water stones, an Arkansas stone (with water and Nagura stone slurry instead of oil), and sometimes a strop with green paste.

Above all, it seems that for most of us, our sharpening methods are constantly evolving, and there are very few wrong answers.

[John Guarino]

You should indeed be lost and confused because the methods are constantly evolving. So are the tools and the work required of the tools.

The more I think about this, the more I think the #1 problem in sharpening is knowing what metal you are working. The makers know a lot of detail concerning how their products will react to grinding, diamond, stone, or whatever abrasive. But I often don't know -- until I have experimented a little to see what abrasive will work on a particular tool.

Then come the decisions about the kind of edge needed; bevel angles, microbevels or not, work sharp vs. ultra fine edge, etc.

I am glad there are a lot of systems, because these questions have many possible answers. And until you have these answers, sharpening will always be confusing.

Would it be smart to pick one kind of tool steel, that is, to use only tools with made of O-1 tool steel and sell off the rest? Or make it A-2. Or make it good old fashioned high carbon steel. And keep a few HSS tools for turning.

I have never heard of anybody doing this, but it would greatly simplify the issues in sharpening, save money and time, and allow (or force!) you to develop great skill in sharpening.