Shop noise

[Bob Feeser]

That is the way teenagers talk. If it is the ultimate they call it death. Weird huh. I didn't know how to approach this. I just received the Logitech headphones only minutes ago. Earlier on in this post I told you about the Logitech Noise Canelling Headphones, well they don't sound good, they sound great. Seriously. As soon as you put them on, you say WOW. Once again seriously. Santa just brought me a pair of Studio Grade Headphones made by Sony, audio engineers can't rave enough about them, they are not noise cancelling headphones though, but totally accurate sound. You can read the reviews from Amazon on the Sony's here.
Well if you didn't read my post earlier in this thread, I wanted to find a cheap pair of noise cancelling headphones for use in the shop, and outside gardening. I have a gas driven bush trimmer, leaf blower, lawn mover, etc. I came across these Logitech, going everywhere for over 160 bucks, but for some reason TiderDirect.com had them for only $39.99 plus S&H for a total of $48.88. I read the reviews and decided to give them a shot. I got them today, arriving a day early, so I popped them on, using my inexpensive iPod Shuffle for $79, and the sound clearly deserves a Wow. So much so that I went right back into TigerDirect.com and wanted to order a second pair, and guess what, they raised the price to $49.99 plus S&H so the final price is $58 now. Shucks that ruins it. I wish I knew they sounded this good, I wouldn't have cancelled my second order. The order accidentally went in twice so 2 sets were on order. I called the cancel the second set. Now I am sorry I did. I just can't stomach paying an extra 10 bucks, even though they are $180 dollar headphones. It is the principle of the thing.
So how does this translate to woodworking concerns? I went into the shop, or should I say I started to write this post, then paused, went into the shop with them, and turned on the equipment with the noise cancelling on. I could faintly hear that the tool was running, but all of the loud clamor was gone. My loudest tool a benchtop 12" planer is so loud I bought headphones from Home Depot because I knew I would be losing my hearing using that planer if I didn't. Well with the Logitech Noise Canellers on, it is a quiet whisper way in the background. All the low end clacking and banging is gone, all you hear is a slight whir. Pleasently the music makes it not even a concern. So they let just enough through for you to know without a doubt that something is running, but it cuts the uglies out. Even my quieter JDS Dust Force, you knew it was running, but only slightly so.
So in conclusion these heaphones make loud machinery go from pain to pleasure. When you lift the headphones from your ears, you hear all kinds of racket, then you let them drop back on your ears and go aaaaahhhhh.
I know this sounds like a gloat, but do yourself a favor and get a pair of these. There are all kinds of links earlier in this thread. One of them is to Tiger Direct. Hey this isn't a great as finding an old never used PM66 for cheap, but it is a good substitute. Even at the extra 10 dollar price, it will save your ears, and give you pleasure working in the shop.

[Glen Blanchard]

I've been following this thread Bob. Not that I need anymore headphones either. Besides a few dozen cheap earbuds laying about the house, I own a pair of Ultimate Ears earbuds (fairly high-end, noise isolating earbuds) and also a pair of Bose QC II's. I love them both and have been using the Ultimate Ears in the shop lately. Being a sucker for a good deal, after seeing your post here, I ordered 2 pair of the Logitechs. My wife said that she would like to have a set since they were such a good deal and I figured at $39.99, I'd just order a second pair for the heck of it. I'll give them a test run in the shop when they arrive. Thanks for the heads-up.

[Bob Feeser]

As a follow up to the headphones Logitech headphones. I did not order a second pair when I was that Tiger Direct had raised there prices by 10 bucks on there web site, but when I saw Glens post that he just ordered 2 for the 39 price, I went back into Amazon, and sure enough, they had them for 39 plus S&H still. So I ordered another pair. Even though I have a new pair of expensive Sony's, I now would like to have 2 pairs of these Logitechs because of there noise cancelling feature. One to get sweaty gardening, and dusty doing wood work, and another to wear out, and in the living room, when I am cleaned up. The Sonys are studio mix headset, more bent on completely even distribution of sound across the spectrum, but in many ways not as exciting as the Logitechs with there sub woofer like bass, and splashy highs.
I highly recommend anyone doing woodwork to get a pair of these. There noise cancelling feature can't be beat, for turning loud growls down to a whisper, let alone you are encased in an orchestra. I don't think getting extra dust in the ear canal is beneficial, although the cilia hairs in the ear are supposed to clean that out. It is another added benefit to wearing headphones though, no matter what kind you wear.
Does the sound cancelling feature harm you ears over time, since it is emmitting a low level source that actually cancels out the outside noise. I have not heard of any problems, and with Bose and most all the major manufacturers producing them, I don't think so, but I know from now on, I will not be entering the shop without a pair ready at hand.
Oh boy, Ipod, great tunes, and no more loud equipment. Yet when the equipment is off, if someone speaks to you, and you don't have the music up too loud, you can hear them clearly. Also you know the equipment is running by the faint sound while the music is even turned up. Disclaimer, Disclaimer, Disclaimer, what can I say, I just orderd another pair.

[Matt Meiser]

How is the sound quality on the Logitech headphones. I bought a new pair of earbuds for my iPod which were more comforable than the stock ones, but didn't sound as good. Then I bought a relatively expensive pair of folding headphones, which sound pretty good, but on a plane they don't drown out the noise that well. I've read good and bad reviews on the Bose (sound great, made cheaply for a lot of money) and after spending over $100 so far I'm leary of spending any more until I find something really good.

[Bob Feeser]

Matt,
I received the Logitechs, and promptly ordered another pair. The sound is great. With sound cancelling on it sounds like a soft subwoofer, with splashy highs, and plenty of middle. Just what you want. I have not heard the Bose QC's but these things are unbelievable for the money. Talking about the money, I went right back to Tiger Direct and wanted to order a other pair, and noticed they raised the price 10 bucks from last nights price. So they went up to 49 plus S&H. Then I received a note that they were 39 still on Amazon, so I went in there and sure enough they still are, even though they are distributed through TIgerDirect anyhow. So I ordered another pair. They really sound great. For woodshop use, the are great as well. I went down into the shop, turned on my noisy as heck 12" Sears planer, with the noise canceling on, it is a quiet whisper in the background.
If you are interested in buying them, just go directly to Amazon, do a search for Logitech Noise Canceling Headphones, and they are listed at I think $39.97 and you will recognize them, because they say on the top of the listing, "you save $235" so you can't miss them. These are $200 headphones in the way they sound, and perform.
I bought a second one because I want a nice pair to wear out or for around the house when I am clean, and another pair for gardening and woodwork to get dusty.
I think I would be doing a disservice not to tell others about these headphones, considering they will result in saving your hearing. I will never do any more woodworking without sound protection, and these give you the added joy of music, while still leaving a trace, enough of the sound of the machine to let you know it is running. It is a faint sound in the background. I did not provide a link in here, and told you to do an Amazon search, because when I get super excited about something, and if I had an excuse to buy a third pair I would, then it sounds like I am selling, and I am not making anything on this at all. Just sharing something that I know will soon go back to the $160 apiece price that the rest of the web has them for, then others will look back and say, I should have bought a pair of them. For this price they are nuts.
I have not heard the Bose QC's, but my brother was just at the mall yesterday hearing them at an Apple store, and he heard these Logitechs the next night (tonight) and he said they are on a par with the Bose. I feel reasonably sure the Bose has a better sound, although I can't imagine it, because some much fan fare has been provided on the Bose as the sound leader. All of those critics can't be all wrong. Hey if you think you are buying a cheap set of noise canclellers for 40 something, you will be pleasantly surprised. I was shocked.

How is the sound quality on the Logitech headphones. I bought a new pair of earbuds for my iPod which were more comforable than the stock ones, but didn't sound as good. Then I bought a relatively expensive pair of folding headphones, which sound pretty good, but on a plane they don't drown out the noise that well. I've read good and bad reviews on the Bose (sound great, made cheaply for a lot of money) and after spending over $100 so far I'm leary of spending any more until I find something really good.

[Roger Wilson]

A couple of questions:

--one of the Amazon reviews said that without music the Logictech headphones themselves make a very loud noise. Have you found this to be true ?

--have you worn the headphones when driving ? I've found the general highway road noise in a car to be as problematic as the noise in an airplane. I'd like to be able to drive safely (hear horns etc.) but without the road noise.

Thanks

[Al Willits]

I'm a little cautious of the units that do anything but reduce dB's, you'd be supprised how easy it is to get the headphone units high enough in volume to do harm.
Not to fond of Bose either, but whatever floats your boat.

For extended runs like with the planer or joiner I'll use the foam ear plugs rated at 31 dB reduction, for day to day stuff I have a couple of pair of muffs from shooting I wear, they are electronic but I just leave them off, reduction is rated at 27db's.

Damage from loud noises is afaik irreversable, be careful.

Al

[Nate Folco]

How do these compare to the disposable foam ear plugs in quieting shop tools?

[Bob Feeser]

Ok, there it is, you have to wonder how they can sell headphones that are almost 200 street price, and list for 267 and only sell them for 39 dollars, here is a review posted on the Tiger Direct Site.

REVIEW BY: Glenn Reviewed Jan 14, 2008Be aware of one thing, in case you didn't notice the contains lead sticker on the back of the box, After calling Logitech tech support, which was easy by the way, they said there was a concern for lead content in the headband steel, they are offering a refund for those who dont want to take the chance with it, but said under normal use there should be no concern, this is a discontinued model, they still stand by the 2 year warranty. They do sound really good, I use them in our manufacturing plant next to some loud machinery and they are quite impressive.

So there you go. If you notice the headband that "contains" the lead is the inner steel band, that the padding and plastic housing surround, and the surface is only exposed if you extend the ear pieces. I don't plan on grinding up my headphones and sprinkling them on my cereal, at least not in my current frame of mind. If I lose a big Super Bowl bet, well then maybe. I have lead in my pencils, in the solder joints in the plumbing from my circa 1955 home, that I can get concerned about, so I use a Brita pitcher to filter my drinking and cooking water, but not some lead as part of the contents in my headphones.
Tiger Direct or Amazon, or any of the other large venues selling these do not mention anything in there ads about lead content. I guess they figure the little sticker on the box is all the warning that is required, and once you hear them, you are going to be saying, lead, what lead?

Anyhow, so you have to decide, and they will take them back if you do not like it at Tiger Direct. Myself personally, I am trying to find an excuse to order a third pair. After reading the review, I picked up the box, and read the little sticker at the very bottom on the back of the box, and it says, "California Proposition 65 Warning. This product contains lead, a chemical known in the State of Ca. to cause cancer, birth defects, and other reproductive harm"

You make up your own mind about these, but below I am, going to give you my opinion.

So now I know why they would sell a pair of headphones that sound like a high end audio store, and have noise canceling, and as the reviewer stated he works near loud machinery and is impressed, and sell them for only $39 plus shipping when they normally sell for street price of over 160 dollars. So when TIger Direct said that they are brand new, full 2 year factory warranty, no refurbs, not returns, not defects, I was curious. So every other source on the web is still getting 160 plus for them, even with a lead sticker. When I received the box, it had the factory clear seal on the box, so these were never opened, factory fresh new.

In conclusion; I love great sound. I love protecting my ears while listening to a high end quality symphony while doing woodwork, I love saving, as Amazon puts it $235 dollars off of manufacturers suggested list. My ears deserve preserving, while I don't see how smooth metal internal straps, sliding over plastic, that have lead content in the metal, are going to ever even create lead dust, let alone ingest it.
Let's do a little satire. I think I am going to go downstairs and throw out all of the lead sinkers that me and Dad used when we went fishing in my youth. I might rub one of those suckers with my fingers, and lose my mind. Oh I forgot the magnets, in the speaker in the house, that vibrate, or the weights on the rims to balance the tires on my car.
One last thing is that I extended the ear pieces, to expose an inch of headband steel, and tried to scratch it with a fingernail and it feels like solid steel. You know if something is solid lead, it dents with a fingernail, if it has some small percentage of lead as a composite, it is hard as a rock. These appear to be steel to me.
You make up your own mind, I am anxiously anticipating my second pair arriving by the end of the week, or the beginning of next week. My ears are thanking me already.

[Steve Leverich]

Bob, "there was a concern for lead content in the headband steel" - these phones are obviously optimised for Heavy Metal Steve

(Oh, and one of the reasons Bose charges so much for theirs is the amount they have to pay their ad people for all those words like "amazing, fantastic, mind-boggling, etc" instead of actual SPECIFICATIONS. My daughter was looking at the Bose so I (being a recording engineer among other things) went looking for specs. Not a single technical word in ANY of their literature, including the actual user manual. Thanks, but NO thanks... Steve

[Mike Goetzke]

Bob - I ordered a set of the Logitech headphones yesterday and received them today. This is my first experience w/ noise canceling headphones. First, they do cut a lot of noise w/o the electronic turned on. With them turned on you can notice it complete eliminates the low freq. background hum. I live in a tri-level style house and was upstairs two levels above the family room. My wife was on the phone and the TV was on. When I activated the phones it knocked out the low tones but not the music/voices on the TV or my wife talking on the phone. Since they seem to cut the low freq. well it made the TV and my wife talking more noticeable. I thought these things would have silenced the TV and my wife. I next went into the garage/shop. Turned on the drill press, DC, and shop vac. They do cut the noise down but in no way silence it. I also turned on the TV in the shop and the voices are easy to hear. I have some Shure E2C's and they seem to cut the background noise about the same as these but they are a pain to put in and take out.

Now if someone talks to you or if the TV is on do yours cut those sounds significantly?


I did hook up my MP3 player and the sound was great with the NC turned on.

(maybe mine don't have enough lead in them)

Thanks,

Mike

[Bob Feeser]

Mike,
With sound deadening on, at zero music levels on in the headset you can clearly hear TV and voices, although slightly reduced. With music on moderately low, you don't hear any of that. In the shop, you hear a faint sound of the super loud equipment running, even with medium levels of music running. So it is safe to know the machine is running, but no longer an offensive damaging noise.
As you mentioned, noise cancelling virtually eliminates lower frequency sounds. It does not eliminate high frequency ones. Plus there is a passive noise cancelling going on, due to the fact that these are enclosed ear muffs. So even with the noise cancelling turned off, you are going to get some benefit. I do not know how they compare to noise cancelling ear muffs, that you buy at Home Depot.
With the noise cancelling turned on, and the music at only the 2 level you do not hear any low levels, and faintly hear high ones. With a loud machine, as in anything in the shop, even a quiet dust collector, you hear something, but faintly so. If you turn on the music at low levels, you will be pleasently hearing music, instead of ear endangering equipment at high sound levels.
I wanted to add that I dug up some more reviews, and at Mac World, they rated these Logitechs as fair in music quality. The Bose 301's were rated as Good and Excellent. They also said that none of the noise cancelling headphones had sound quality equivalent to those without noise cancelling, plus they are more expensive due to having to add the noise cancelling feature.
Let me put some perspective on how this whole thing got started. I had bought a pair of Studio grade headphones from Sony, for my music interests, and a studio for recording that I am putting together. Then I realized that I really needed an inexpensive pair of headphones to do gardening, and woodworking. Then I happened upon these Logitechs, and they had noise cancelling besides. That would be great for what I wanted to use them for. After reading so many reviews, some raved about how great they sounded, others said they do not sound as good as the Bose QCs at $300, or $350, for the price I thought I would give it a shot. Well when they arrived, and I put them on, I wasn't expecting much, that is what shocked me. They sounded way better than my expectations. I was thrilled. Then I decided that I wanted a clean pair, for wearing out, or for studying, with others in the room talking, and another pair for shop and gardening use, so I bought another pair, that are on order through Amazon. After the way I raved about these things, I sort of feel like I am representing them, which I do not want to do. Personal tastes vary. Some people like a lot of bass, these have plenty, others like a flatter sound, which these have if you turn off the noise cancelling, although it seems kind of shallow without the NC turned on.
A simple way to put it is to say, when you consider price, these are the best noise cancelling headphones out there. Are they really, I don't know, because I haven't tried all of the cheap ones, but from the reviews, the cheapies don't sound that hot, and some people rave about the way the Logitechs sound, and I am one of them, especially considering price. You have to be your own judge.
I think this post is especially relevant when you consider how many fellow woodworkers are working on loud machinery without any protection. These are a very nice alternative.

[Bob Feeser]

Roger Wilson, A couple of questions:

--one of the Amazon reviews said that without music the Logictech headphones themselves make a very loud noise. Have you found this to be true ?
Ans: He must have a defective pair. The Mac World review gave them an excellent on both hiss levels, which these have none, and many others do have, and on sound pressure, which noise cancelling creates, but these do so with an excellent rating, as in not a problem

--have you worn the headphones when driving ? I've found the general highway road noise in a car to be as problematic as the noise in an airplane. I'd like to be able to drive safely (hear horns etc.) but without the road noise.
Ans: I believe it is against the law to wear headphones while driving for safetys sake. Please see the thread I just posted about which types of sounds it blocks, and which it doesn't.

[Bob Feeser]

How do these compare to the disposable foam ear plugs in quieting shop tools?

I don't think you can do an apples with apples, and oranges with oranges comparison between the two. I haven't really done a comparison between them, and since I do not have the foam earplugs presently, I can not run a test. I have used the foam plugs in the past though, and it enabled me to sleep through a snoring environment when away at the shore on weekends in a shared beach house.
Actually if you can hear some high sounds coming through with the foam, although muffled, and also hear some lower sounds although muffled with the foam, you do not have the equivalent sound suppression of these headphones.
It is important to differentiate between absolute sound suppression which these are not, although they come so close on lower frequencies, you could classify them as that, and a combined sound suppression, that is so effective, that you can turn on low level, as in level 2 out of ten in music, and enjoy it without competing with background noise, even when it is at high levels.
I am starting to learn a lot more about hearing damage in my journeys through the web in the last day or two. Our ears are a lot more sensitive to permanent damage then I have realized. A sudden or abrupt sound like a nearby blast, can ruin your ears for a lifetime in an instant, and it drops off from there. A government body stated that above 85 db we are experiencing hearing damage, the closer to 85 it is the longer it requires for the damage to accumulate, at above 100, into the 110 range, it is appreciable over much shorter exposure. So everyone should do something, even if it is foam inserts, or whatever is best. I am by no means a hearing, headphone or sound expert, but I am always fascinated with learning.

[Joe Chritz]

Good post Bob.

I started looking at hearing damage and sound when I started shooting a lot many years ago now. I have opted for electronic for ease and convienence, although there are better ways for total protection.

For 99% of the time any protection will be adequate for a shop. However, if you want to wear them all the time then things like comfort and ability to hear non-damaging sounds is very important.

In fact, hearing non-damaging sounds is why I went electronic for shooting.

Joe