Help in finishing Beech and Walnut

[Brian Kent]

I am making a simple piece of furniture out of beech and walnut. It is a laptop computer tray to use while I sit on the couch or chair. My intention was to try a piece that had some fluid shaping around the joints. The stand is beech and the tray is walnut.

I want to build the finish to a beautiful gloss.

So far I have sanded to 220 and applied the first coat of Watco Danish Wood Oil. I'll do the same tomorrow for bringing out the grain and sealing the wood.

WHAT NEXT?

Time is not any concern. What process would you use to finish this piece to a smooth gloss? What kind of fine sanding etc.?

[Sam Yerardi]

Brian,

There are a lot of different approaches you can take to get the kind of finish you're wanting. Everything from shellac (as in a French polish), lacquer, varnish, polyurethane can be used. If the piece is going to have a lot of hands-on wear, I would avoid the French polish approach. Lacquer is an option but for myself I would avoid it because of the health issue, and because it will have a very long drying time, sometimes as much as 21 days before you can work the surface to go to the next coat. I would suggest varnish or oil-based polyurethane.

What I will relate here is one thing I've tried - others will have their own methods that work for them. It should take the Danish oil a couple of days minimum to dry enough to proceed to the next step. Apply a wiping varnish (Varathane professional gloss that has been thinned down to as much as 50% to help with leveling and application). Thin it down with mineral spirits. Wait a minimum of 2 days between each coat, and lightly sand or scuff to at least 300 grit or higher. Keep repeating the coating, sanding, etc., until you've reached the build you're wanting. When you've reached that point, wet-sand with a little water to 600 grit. When you're through that, add one last coat of the gloss varnish. Let it dry for at least a day. Apply a paste wax with 0000 steel wool. I've had good luck with a mixture (beeswax, mineral spirits) but you could use just about anything. You can then go even a bit more and wait at least a week, then use polishing compound.

Myself I would stay with gloss varnish throughout the entire procedure because of the addition of 'defractors' in semi-gloss and flat varnish. I try to keep all base coats prior to the last coat as clear as I can. Then if I want semi-gloss or flat I use it on the last coat.

[Steve Schoene]

One coat of the Watco is sufficient to pop the grain. If you want a smooth finish without the pores showing you should fill them with pore filler unless you want to apply a great many coats of top coat, sanding them back to the cut through point. A oil-based pore filler, tinted to match or enhance the color of the walnut can be used on the walnut top. It isn't necessary to fill pores on the base.

After the pore filler has had a week to cure you can apply top coat. A wipe on varnish, such as Waterlox can be used. You shouldn't wait two days between coats. If you apply coats about 6-8 hours a part you won't need to sand between coats. After each 3 or 4 coats let it dry for 24 hours, sand to remove dust or other imperfections and apply another 3-4 coats. For the final rubbing out, sand lightly with 600 grit and then with about 1200 grit. Then use a fine polishing compound to bring it up to a glossy sheen. Actually, for finishes that will be rubbed out I prefer to use a full strength brushing varnish such as Behlen Rockhard. The coats must be spaced a day apart, and must be sanded between coats. After 3 or four coats you should let it cure fully, as close to a month as you can tolerate is best. Then begin sanding with as fine a sand paper as will remove the surface imperfects. Often I start with 600 grit. Then progressively sand to about 1200 grit before shifting to polishing compound (or rottenstone). With the brush on finish there is less risk of cutting through the top coat and revealing shadow lines between the layers. You can sand to greater perfection.

By the way, lacquer is very quick drying unless it has been retarded for brush application, and even then it will be dry in an hour. Sanding between coats of lacquer isn't needed, except to remove defects. You don't want to breathe the solvents in lacquer so good ventilation is a must, but once dry there are no further health issues.

[Sam Yerardi]

Like I said - a lot of different methods. For the method I suggested, you DO want to wait between coats as I indicated. For the material being used you want to wait until is is sufficiently hard. I follow Dresdner, Flexner, and Jewitt and their methods as much as I can and so far I've had good luck so that's who I stick with. Everyone has a different method and preference and they swear by it. There isn't one and only one way.

[Steve Schoene]

Wiping varnish goes on quite a bit thinner than brush on varnish--if fact it takes 3 or 4 wipe on coats to build as much finish as 1 brushed on coat. It's also true that if you wait 2 days between coats that you should sand to assure adhesion. This is particularly important with polyurethane varnish which tends to have adhesion problems. Polyurethane varnishes don't sand quite as well either, but thinned 50% and wiped on, there is still no reason to wait 2 days between coats before sanding and recoating. If that thin a polyurethane coat won't sand satisfactorily for two days I'd certainly use a different varnish. Besides traditional resin varnishes will look better anyway, and will be just as durable in a practical sense. I'm quite sure that Bob Flexner has never recommended that long a wait between coats of wiping varnish.

My schedule works because after you have built the equivalent thickness of one brushed on coat you let it cure for 24 hours, which is what would be recommended for brushed on full strength varnish of about the same film thickness. With the less than full cure between each coat in a batch of three or four sanding between coats isn't required. For a full strength brushed on varnish you do have to wait 24 hours to let the "inner" parts of the film cure sufficiently before they are further sealed from the air by another coat.

The long wait system will work--it won't create a failure or anything, it is just inefficient to have to wait so long and sand so much. It will probably mean an extra coat, or even two, to build the same final film thickness.

[Jim Becker]

I would suggest varnish or oil-based polyurethane.

To clarify, oil-based polyurethane is varnish...one of the three general types. The other two are alkyd and phenolic and these terms refer to the type of resins used. Polyurethane resins (often combined with other resins) are used to impart a specific set of properties to the varnish; in particular abrasion resistance, since they were developed for use on floors.

[Brian Kent]

OK, so this is what I am hearing…

I finished with the Danish oil this morning. My day off is Thursday (which will be 48 hours) so I'll pick up some supplies before that.

I'll thin down Varathane professional gloss 50% with mineral spirits.

I'll wipe on either one coat (Sam) or 3 or 4 coats, 6-8 hours apart (Steve), followed by 2 days (Sam) or 24 hours (Steve). Actually my next available time is Saturday, so 2 days works.

I'll sand lightly with 300 grit or higher.

Repeat 3-4 times or until I have the right build.

Then I will wait 2 more days (Sam) or as close to a month as I can tolerate (Steve) and then wet-sand with 600 grit, apply one last coat, dry for a day, use paste wax with 0000 steel wool (Sam) or sand lightly with 600, then progressively to 1200 (Steve). Then (Steve) or after a week (Sam) use polishing compound.

Steve, I'll try the wipe-on poly this time and the full strength brushing varnish on another project.

Question for both…
Is polishing compound the same as automotive polishing compound?

I appreciate both of your responses and hope I have the general flow of steps right.

If I only had one eye I would have no depth perception. Two similar but different responses help me to start figuring out the logic behind the systems.

Thanks, and let me know if I didn't hear something correctly!

[Steve Schoene]

Yes, it is automotive polishing compound.

[Brian Kent]

Thanks. I have some of that.

[Sam Yerardi]

Briant,

I've learned that Steve is an excellent source of solid finishing information. I'm still learning. While some of the things I do worked for me, I don't have enough experience yet to know what to do when they DON'T work. And, I'm approaching the job in a general fashion. In other words, someone with his experience might look at a job and say you can use that approach but change this or that. I wouldn't know to do that. Some things, yes, but he has straightened me out on some things more than once so keep that in mind. I have been reading a lot of some of the authors I mentioned but there's still no replacement for hands-on experience, trial and error, and asking question from people that do know what they're doing .

I plan on picking his brain (and others) about finishing every chance I get and I know eventually he's going to get tired seeing my name show up on this site . Just the responses to why my methods or understanding may have a problem is extremely helpful. Thanks, Steve.

Sam

[Sam Yerardi]

And thanks Jim for pointing out the difference. I knew there are those baisc types but I'm a little unsure at the store which one I'm buying. I know there are some brands that definitely are poly vs. alkyd but manufacturers make it somewhat difficult to know what's in their products. I've never figured out why. Thanks again Jim.

[Jim Becker]

... but manufacturers make it somewhat difficult to know what's in their products.

Indeed they do. Indeed they do...

[Brian Kent]

If you want a smooth finish without the pores showing you should fill them with pore filler unless you want to apply a great many coats of top coat, sanding them back to the cut through point. A oil-based pore filler, tinted to match or enhance the color of the walnut can be used on the walnut top. It isn't necessary to fill pores on the base.

Steve, I am unfamiliar with pore fillers. If I use one, which brand or type should I use? Also, I am thinking of using a clear filler because the walnut table has a pattern of dark and light areas, making it difficult to match just one of them.

[Sam Yerardi]

Brian,

There are several things you can do to fill the pores. You can use wood filler, shellac, dust from sanding with some sort of binder, etc. Wood fillers will fill the pores to level quickly. It will take numerous coats to use shellac, but shellac might work well for the situation you're describing where you don't want to add color. As far as wood fillers I've only used Minwax Wood Filler and shellac (not together, that is).

[Brian Kent]

So if I try the wood filler, does that carry its own color rather than being translucent?