Kitchen Cabinet experts, share your wisdom

[Chris Yarish]

I have seen many members asking questions about a kitchen reno/rebuild, and often experienced cabinetmakers say that if you have to ask, you probably shouldn't be doing the job.
I am most definately one of the guys who "shouldn't be doing the job"....not for lack of desire, or lack of creativity, or lack of understanding of what a monumental task it can be, but for lack of previous cabinet making experience.

I have purchased a book on cabinetmaking, have scoured the 'net looking for tips and tricks, but I think it would be great to have a thread dedicated to the art of kitchen cabinetry, and any advice that can be passed on to the rookies.

What are some common problems that seem to arise frequently, what are some helpful jigs or templates that can make the job go smoother, what are some unique tricks of the trade that one won't find in a cabinet making book.

Thanks in advance....

[keith ouellette]

I am an inexperienced cabinet maker. It is something I always wanted to do so I made some upper and lower maple face frame cabinets for our laundry room recently (The pics are up here at the creek). They came out really well for my fisrt set.

I designed and made my own cut list which took much longer because it added some mistakes that had to be redone.

Make a two base cabinets alone to get a feel for it. I did two base cabinets first and the uppers came out better and faster because of the practice.

I don't know how good your finishing powers are but that is the thing that made things extra hard on me. You need to know exactly how to apply your finish to your specific project. It is the easy way to ruin a lot of work. I had to sand my two lower cabinets down and refinish them The story is on the finish forum.

If you have to ask it is all the more reason to do and discover. A mistake will teach you a lot more than someone telling you how. Its just more painful.

[Glenn Clabo]

One comment...

Kreg Jig. http://www.kregtool.com/products/pht/index.php

There are others like it...even a homemade design by Steve Clardy here at SMC http://www.sawmillcreek.org/member.php?u=393 ...so look into it.

Although I did once make a living as cabinetmaker..it was in the dark ages. Now I mostly just do it to remodel this old Cape. I have had the Kreg Jig though the last few jobs...and man did it save some heartache.

There are a few tricks of the trade that more practiced people will jump in on. So ask more specific questions as you go...and stand by.

[Chris Yarish]

Yeah, I am hoping that more specific questions can be asked as the thread develops....

I have one...

If I am making frameless upper cabinets on a run of about 7', should I make every cabinet pair individually (a separate carcass for each pair of cabinets) or can I make one long one?

[Steve Milito]

Get a software program that lays out the cut-out diagram for cutting the panels. You'll save the cost of the program upon first use. It will also calculated the number of panels and amount of wood you need. It can do it faster and better than you can do it by hand. I use Cutlist plus. There are others.

[Dave Burris]

In my opinion I think one thing to consider on the design of all you uppers is how will they be set? More to the point will you have help getting them attached to the wall or are you flying solo. A single box will be easier to handle if your working alone. If you have help it might save time in setting the box if you can make the box longer. I have done both and if set correctly you can't tell a difference after the job is done. Just make it easy on yourself

Dave Burris

[Roger Ronas]

I'll try to answer that one Chris,

Depending on several things as to why do it one way or the other.

First when you make one long cab. You have to consider liftig to install. Use half overlay or inset hinges. Uses less material. Harder if it includes different height cabs in the same run.
If using separate boxes, easier to install, uses more material, easier to do different height and castleing can be an option.
One other note, Think about and draw out frontal views to see if uppers and lowers match. Nothing worse than building everything, installing it and then seeing that you have a 18" door upper and a 15" door on the lower. Things should line up vertically.

HTH
Roger

[Jim Becker]

Building is easy. Getting the design right is critical for the functionality of the kitchen. One tip...make the upper cabinets a little deeper for better storage flexibility. If I were doing it again, mine would have been 15" deep.

[Chris Yarish]

One other note, Think about and draw out frontal views to see if uppers and lowers match. Nothing worse than building everything, installing it and then seeing that you have a 18" door upper and a 15" door on the lower. Things should line up vertically.

HTH
Roger

Brilliant....that is one of those things I considered when I did my first set of drawings, but have since overlooked.

[Chris Yarish]

Building is easy. Getting the design right is critical for the functionality of the kitchen. One tip...make the upper cabinets a little deeper for better storage flexibility. If I were doing it again, mine would have been 15" deep.

Thanks Jim...how about cabinet height above countertop? I have seen 18" as a "standard"...is that pretty much the case?

I have also read in an American book of standards, that overall heights of cabinets in bathrooms and kitchens have been on the rise over the past few decades due to an increase in the average heights of average kitchen users.

Comments on that?

[Chris Yarish]

In my opinion I think one thing to consider on the design of all you uppers is how will they be set? More to the point will you have help getting them attached to the wall or are you flying solo. A single box will be easier to handle if your working alone. If you have help it might save time in setting the box if you can make the box longer. I have done both and if set correctly you can't tell a difference after the job is done. Just make it easy on yourself

Dave Burris

I have seen cabinets screwed directly to the wall studs and I have seen the use of Z-clips ( http://www.leevalley.com/hardware/pa...=3,41306,41308 )

Pros or cons on the uses of either?

[George Bregar]

I am most definately one of the guys who "shouldn't be doing the job"....not for lack of desire, or lack of creativity, or lack of understanding of what a monumental task it can be, but for lack of previous cabinet making experience.

If I didn't do anything in woodworking because I lacked experience...well I would just sell my tools. What is so hard about cabinets? They're simple boxes, made using screws, with simple face frames, affixed with biscuits. Pretty sure there isn't much to know that can't be read in a book. And not to offend cabinet makers, the key to a good professional cabinet maker is being able to produce quality work...fast.

[Dave Burris]

I personally use nailers in the top and bottom of the box. Being of limited income like I am I find it easier to use a little hardwood in place of the wall mounting strips. But this is just me. I was taught the ole' face frame design and it has hung with me ever since. I have set a couple of jobs with frameless and the strips make it easier for a one person job.

I think it all comes down to personal choice. I don't think there is a wrong way here, just a preferred way.

[jason lambert]

I think you are being to hard on yourself if you have the desire and are doing research you should do fine. Most people that try fail because they don't do the research or don't have the right tools and try to nail everyting together.

On that note one of the best things I have done was go out and look at some Nice kitchens. I recomend looking at Brookhaven or some other good brand and see how the draws and cabinets are put together. Pay specific attention to the hardware, how it mounts and the style.

On that note Kreg jigs are great, you will need one or something similar, I also recomend a HVLP gun for the finish and use an approved kitchen finish that is resistant to chemicals.

Hope this helps a bit.

[Larry Fox]

Having done a kitchen myself (link to thread below) I can tell you for sure that it is a completely doable job and, as Jim says, the building is the easy part. The one thing that you need to be ready for and have realstic expectations about is the sheer amount of time that it takes for a person doing wwing on a hobby basis to complete. Anything involving repeatability and scale, both of which you have with a kitchen, really introduce a lot of time drag.

Couple of points that were gotchas for me that I can share are;

1) Really think about your cutting / milling / machining workflow to reduce setup time. For example, mill and cut ALL your faceframe stock at the same time so you don't need to pay the setup cost multiple times. Same with router table setup for rails / stiles and panels. While it might not sound like a lot of time but it really adds up depending on how many times you have to do the changeover.
2) Build your boxes out of pre-finished ply. This I did do and I can't begin to imagine how much time and hassle it saved me.
3) Make sure you have a lot of room to store the boxes etc after you have them built. I stored mine in my living / dining room and those rooms were unusable for the project. It is surprisng how much room they take up.
4) The finishing process takes a lot of time and I don't see a way around that. It also take a lot of room so build yourself some drying racks.
5) Buy your drawers. I didn't do this and wish I had. Unless you are doing hand-cut dovetails, after you do one or two drawers there is really nothing interesting (IMHO) about doing drawers and they take a long time. The cost / benefit equation favors buying the boxes.
6) Whatever you think you are going to need in terms of "consumables" (sandpaper, glue, screws, etc) - double it.
7) As another poster advised - pocket hole screws. Nuff said there.
8) Don't do the tearout of your existing kitchen until you can absolutely go no further without doing it. The time between when you tear out your exsiting one and the new one going in is an absolutely miserable period. Don't believe it? Go home tonight and tell your sig-o that for the next two weeks you both have to do your dishes in the bathtub and the food from the drawers and pantry will be in random boxes scattered throughout the house. It won't be in one place because, remember, the new cabinets you built are where you would like to put that stuff.

All this being said, I am very glad I did mine as it is an extremely rewarding project and in th end you save yourself so much $$ and you have a custom job. I am contemplating doing another one for my parents house and I can say for sure that the second will go faster than the first due to things that I learned. In terms of books, I recommend the one by Udo Schmidt. He does focus on face-frame cabinets though so if you want to go frameless another book might be appropriate.

I would say go for it but just be realistc about the amount of time it will take.

http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=50336