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Thread: Dust Collection Performance using Dylos Meter

  1. #16
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Location
    Calgary Alberta
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    33
    Greg, They had well over 100 orders (Kudos to Phil) and they are moving through them at a steady pace. I was contacted last week to say mine was on the way up to Canada so I expect it this week.

    I am curious to test my shop too!

    Bob in Calgary

  2. #17
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
    Location
    Post Falls, Idaho
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    192

    Great info

    I am really thankful to all for posting this information and hope that all who bought one of these units will post their readings also. I know I will as soon as the budget allows a purchase. I have always been a little leery of the volumes of numbers spewed forth by self proclaimed experts (especially those who derive income from the sale of related products) about how "cutting one board with a hand saw, etc. etc." is going to put us all in the hospital with lung disease. Good health in the shop should be everyone's priority and it is refreshing to get numbers from folks who have nothing to gain but their own good health. It would be interesting to see what the count is inside the house just after you (or the LOML) have vacuumed a room compared to what is considered dangerous by the "pros". Maybe the sky isn't falling after all and perhaps (with reasonable care and reasonable equipment) we can live to a ripe old age and enjoy the wonders of working with wood. If this post is deemed offensive please remove it and I will go hit myself in the head with some hickory or something.

  3. #18
    Join Date
    Aug 2006
    Location
    Saint Helens, OR
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    2,463
    Bob,

    I figured they were keeping pretty busy getting these out. I'm looking forward to getting data on my shop space and living quarters too. I'm sure that even the .5 sized particles floating about in the house are not the nasty kind one finds in the wood shop.

    I wonder what size particle pet dander is? Two cats and a dog may prove interesting.

  4. #19
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Location
    Near Boston, MA
    Posts
    146
    Quote Originally Posted by Rich S Kelly View Post
    I just went outside and got a reading. Higher than I expected showing 350/12 in Omaha, NE. That would explain somewhat the much lower readings on the second floor of the house than the first floor with the necessary door opening/closing.

    Rich
    Quote Originally Posted by Greg Funk View Post
    Perhaps working in the shop is not as harmful as some would have led us to believe. It appears the air is significantly cleaner in the shop than outdoors.

    Greg
    I have been informally f@rting around with mine and got results very much like Rich Kelly's (I'm in exurban Boston). I let the unit run in the shop and got consisten 90/1 readings. I then turned on the scroll saw and cut some maple - readings went to almost exactly outdoor levels while cutting and then settled quickly. (No DC in place on the scroll saw.) If nothing else, I now understand why people with lung issues are told to stay indoors on smoggy days.

  5. #20
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Location
    central PA
    Posts
    1,774
    I'm not involved in the study here but wanted to say thanks to all who have posted or will post their results. I am weighing out my options for dust collection/air filtration and this information is greatly appreciated.

  6. #21
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    Chicagoland
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    2,800
    I also think it's great to share our results, but, I shot Phil an e-mail today and suggested it might be nice to post results at his sight so we can consolidate the results. He warned that many forums, like SMC, do not allow reference to other web addresses but maybe an exception is due for this subject? Any ideas/suggestions? Maybe SMC could have a dedicated forum for DC measurements - even if it's only temporary?


    Mike

  7. #22
    Join Date
    Oct 2006
    Location
    East Brunswick, NJ
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    1,475
    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Goetzke View Post
    Surprising results - at least to me. From your test it looks like your cyclone is working as an air filter system. Does this mean we should let our DC systems run for some time after using a tool? I get my meter next week. I have a canister type DC and an air filtration unit. Looks like it would be interesting to try a combination of having the machines on/off.

    Thanks for sharing your info,

    Mike
    I agree -- it would be very interesting to see how an air cleaner affects dust particle readings.

    I got to the group buy thing late -- now I'm sorry I didn't get in on purchasing one of these dust meters.

  8. #23
    I am curious how the numbers look with a sander, planer or bandsaw.

    The surprising thing about the numbers you have shown is that you do a bunch of cuts and have to wait a while outside the shop for the levels to come down.

    One other curiosity - what were the numbers if you just walked around the shop a little while? Can you stir enough dust doing that?

    Your machine is giving particle counts - is there a conversion factor to mg/M**3?

    Bob A.

  9. #24
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Vancouver, BC
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    858
    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Antoniewicz View Post
    The surprising thing about the numbers you have shown is that you do a bunch of cuts and have to wait a while outside the shop for the levels to come down.

    One other curiosity - what were the numbers if you just walked around the shop a little while? Can you stir enough dust doing that?

    Your machine is giving particle counts - is there a conversion factor to mg/M**3?

    Bob A.
    I didn't have to leave the shop I just had other things to do. I just cut up some scrap boards. The smell of freshly cut fir was reasonably strong but I wouldn't normally wear a mask or leave the shop under those conditions.

    I walked around the shop a little but it's pretty easy to keep my floor swept clean so other than some air currents there isn't much to stir up dust.

    I don't believe there is a simple conversion to mg/m^3 which measures the weight of dust/volume. The meter doesn't really give much info on the distribution of particle sizes so it would be difficult to determine the mass of the measured particles.

    For me it is enough to do comparative measurements. For example, tonight we lit 17 little candles for my son's birthday. The cake was about 15 ft away from the meter and when he blew out the candles the readings jumped up almost immediately to around 2000. After 4 hrs they were down to 150 or so. This is beginning to tell me that the shop environment is not all that different than what we experience with everyday living.

    Greg

  10. Quote Originally Posted by Greg Funk View Post
    I didn't have to leave the shop I just had other things to do. I just cut up some scrap boards. The smell of freshly cut fir was reasonably strong but I wouldn't normally wear a mask or leave the shop under those conditions.

    ...
    ...

    For me it is enough to do comparative measurements. For example, tonight we lit 17 little candles for my son's birthday. The cake was about 15 ft away from the meter and when he blew out the candles the readings jumped up almost immediately to around 2000. After 4 hrs they were down to 150 or so. This is beginning to tell me that the shop environment is not all that different than what we experience with everyday living.

    Greg
    Thanks for the information. The engineer in me wants to figure out the absolute numbers from the data you've given. (What was the air volume sample that gave the reading of 2000 particles? :-)

    But your observation in relative terms holds real value.

    Thanks.

    Bob A.

  11. #26
    Join Date
    Feb 2007
    Location
    Silicon Valley, CA
    Posts
    153

    Not all dust is created equal

    Guys,

    I think it is unwise to assume that all dust of the same micron size is equal. A reading of 650 wood dust is likely much more dangerous than a 650 outside of pollen (unless your hayfever is really really bad).

    I can't image that inhaled pollen will last very long inside the lungs - it's pretty delicate stuff. Wood particles, on the other hand, being made of cellulose, are apparently very pesistant. Furthermore many are loaded with natural pesticides that can do all sorts of nasty things.

    Regardless, any data that is collected is fantastic. Just establishing a "clean" baseline is great since one can evaluate their dust collecting systems against it. Keep reporting - I'm keeping a look out for more data!

    Matt

  12. #27
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Location
    Vancouver, BC
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    Quote Originally Posted by Matt Lentzner View Post
    Guys,

    I think it is unwise to assume that all dust of the same micron size is equal. A reading of 650 wood dust is likely much more dangerous than a 650 outside of pollen (unless your hayfever is really really bad).
    Matt,
    I suppose you could be correct but I really don't know what is in the air outdoors. I surmised pollen but it could be coal dust from the coal port 10 miles away or particulate from vehicle exhaust or something else. It is a little unfortunate that there aren't any studies that I am aware of that would allow one to conclusively determine whether a particular particle count was harmful or not. In any case I think this meter will assist me in minimizing how much junk I am breathing

    Greg

  13. #28
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Delaware Valley, PA
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    476
    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Antoniewicz View Post
    Your machine is giving particle counts - is there a conversion factor to mg/M**3?
    Hi, Bob. If you're interested in using the particle counts to see how the dust levels compare to OSHA's standard, here's some more info.

    It was reported in an earlier thread on this forum, that the OSHA standard is 1mg dust per cubic meter. (http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showpost...&postcount=113) I did a little digging (google "osha wood dust) and found that this is incorrect. The standard is a little more complicated than that, because it depends on the "time weighted average" of a person's exposure to the dust.

    For a person who will be exposed to the dust for up to ten hours a day, and up to 40 hours a week, the "permissible exposure limit" for "total dust" is 15mg/m^3. If you limit the dust to what is called the "respirable fraction," the limkt is 5mg/m^3, still five times the figure stated in the earlier thread. OSHA also gives these exposure limits as particle numbers as measured by "impinger samples counted by light-field." These particle number limits are 50 million particles/cu.ft. for total dust and 15 million particles/cu.ft. for the respirable fraction of dust.

    Several other facts are worth noting.

    First, NIOSH (the National Institute for Occupational Safety & Health, a federal govt agency) and the ACGIH (American Conference of Governmental Industrial Hygienists (a private organization) both recommend limits of 1mg/m^3 for hardwood dust for a full work work day (10 hours for NIOSH and 8 hours for ACGIH) and 40 hour workweek, but for short term exposures of 15 minutes, up to four times a day, the ACGIH would allow exposures of up to 10mg/m^3 for hardwoods.

    Second, since all these numbers are advocated by parties with various political agendas, it's worth asking what the labor unions are asking for. After all, they're the ones with an interest in exaggerating the risk in order to win concessions in other areas from management. In 1985, the United Brotherhood of Carpenters and Joiners of America of the AFL-CIO petitioned OSHA to change the standard to 1mg/m^3 for hardwoods and 5mg/m^3 for softwoods. OSHA rejected that standard after reviewing the health evidence presented.

    Third, it's worth asking what the courts think of all this, because they're (theoretically) neutral and only interested in what the law and the science indicate. The OSHA standard for the time between March of 1989 and March of 1993 was 5mg/m^3 for total dust for hardwoods. The federal Court of Appeals for the Eleventh Circuit ruled that the facts presented to OSHA in support of that standard were not sufficient to support it under the law. AFL-CIO v. OSHA, 965 F.2d 962 (11th Cir. 1992).

    Sorry if this has been a long post that seems like thread drift, but I think that if we're going to try to use the particle meters to compare the dust levels in our shop with the OSHA standard, then it would be worth considering these things.

    Thanks to all who have contributed to this thread. It's important that we understand the risks we're subjecting ourselves to so that we take appropriate precautions. But by the same token, it's important that we don't unreasonably overestimate the risks and deprive ourselves of activities and products that we enjoy.
    Regards,

    John
    What this world needs is a good retreat.
    --Captain Beefheart

  14. #29
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    Dec 2007
    Location
    Near Boston, MA
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    146
    I think it is unwise to assume that all dust of the same micron size is equal. A reading of 650 wood dust is likely much more dangerous than a 650 outside of pollen (unless your hayfever is really really bad).
    Good point...I think. I have never gotten sick walking around outside...I have gotten sick breathing tropical hardwood dust. Whether there are more subtle or longer-term issues...dunno...urban air can be full of pretty nasty particles, but so can the shop.

  15. #30
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    Mar 2005
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Goetzke View Post
    I also think it's great to share our results, but, I shot Phil an e-mail today and suggested it might be nice to post results at his sight so we can consolidate the results. He warned that many forums, like SMC, do not allow reference to other web addresses but maybe an exception is due for this subject? Any ideas/suggestions? Maybe SMC could have a dedicated forum for DC measurements - even if it's only temporary?
    I haven't looked at Phil's site, but what you're suggesting (probably) isn't a problem:

    Quote Originally Posted by SMC TOS
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