East & West -- Machine Made & Hand Made

[David DeCristoforo]

"...I'd like to hear from more people who actually own some good Japanese tools, or who are tried and true Japanese tools users..."

I own and use a number of Japanese hand tools. Many planes, chisels and saws, all made by "artisan" blacksmiths of some status as "traditional" makers and many of which cost more than I care to admit spending. I have made many of the "dais" or plane bodies for the plane blades and all of the handles for the saws, all leather wrapped with much care. I enjoy using these tools and feel a connection with the tradition and history of their making. I also have a number of fine (expensive) natural water stones and regularly "enjoy" putting a razor edge on my chisels and planes with them.

But....how to answer the question of how much better of a woodworker I am using these fine tools? Certainly, my enjoyment of woodworking is greatly enhanced. But are my mortices "better" than those cut with top quality "western style" chisels? Or those ploughed out with a router? Are my tenons any "better" than if I had cut them with a fine, brass backed, rosewood handled "western style" back saw? Or milled them on a table saw? I'm thinking that they are not.

I believe that this is just like many other things in life. Driving may be much more enjoyable when you have a fine car to drive but you don't get where you are going any faster. You have to balance what it's worth to you as an individual and what you are willing to "make do" with. I have friends who pride themselves in keeping an old battered truck on the road rather than send it to the car crusher and buy a new one. And others who trade in their cars as soon as it loses that "new car smell". What works for you?

YM

[Pam Niedermayer]

...But....how to answer the question of how much better of a woodworker I am using these fine tools? Certainly, my enjoyment of woodworking is greatly enhanced. But are my mortices "better" than those cut with top quality "western style" chisels? Or those ploughed out with a router? Are my tenons any "better" than if I had cut them with a fine, brass backed, rosewood handled "western style" back saw? Or milled them on a table saw? I'm thinking that they are not.

I believe that this is just like many other things in life. Driving may be much more enjoyable when you have a fine car to drive but you don't get where you are going any faster. You have to balance what it's worth to you as an individual and what you are willing to "make do" with. I have friends who pride themselves in keeping an old battered truck on the road rather than send it to the car crusher and buy a new one. And others who trade in their cars as soon as it loses that "new car smell". What works for you?

Yes, I'd have to agree with this; but I'd also like to add that often using a good tool allows me to avoid making mistakes and/or allows me to recover gracefully when I make a mistake. Very similar to the argument about sports cars vs big sedans (good sports cars are smaller and more vulnerable when hit, but they also allow you to avoid accidents more easily, assuming, of course, that you're a capable driver).

Pam

[Dan Racette]

"...I'd like to hear from more people who actually own some good Japanese tools, or who are tried and true Japanese tools users..."

I own and use a number of Japanese hand tools. Many planes, chisels and saws, all made by "artisan" blacksmiths of some status as "traditional" makers and many of which cost more than I care to admit spending. I have made many of the "dais" or plane bodies for the plane blades and all of the handles for the saws, all leather wrapped with much care. I enjoy using these tools and feel a connection with the tradition and history of their making. I also have a number of fine (expensive) natural water stones and regularly "enjoy" putting a razor edge on my chisels and planes with them.

But....how to answer the question of how much better of a woodworker I am using these fine tools? Certainly, my enjoyment of woodworking is greatly enhanced. But are my mortices "better" than those cut with top quality "western style" chisels? Or those ploughed out with a router? Are my tenons any "better" than if I had cut them with a fine, brass backed, rosewood handled "western style" back saw? Or milled them on a table saw? I'm thinking that they are not.

I believe that this is just like many other things in life. Driving may be much more enjoyable when you have a fine car to drive but you don't get where you are going any faster. You have to balance what it's worth to you as an individual and what you are willing to "make do" with. I have friends who pride themselves in keeping an old battered truck on the road rather than send it to the car crusher and buy a new one. And others who trade in their cars as soon as it loses that "new car smell". What works for you?

YM

I always feel that tools don't make a difference if you can't hit the mark!

I am really starting this thread for a couple of reasons. I want to hear more about tools that are made in the traditional methods and get some people here to be exposed to the difference between the quality of those tools and the tools that are generally available on the market and labelled as "Japanese" and how well they work.

I don't think that anyone here could make enough statements here to get someone to spend the $$ on a hand-crafted chisel and be a west to east convert. However, it might get someone to understand that they might want to be driven to the opportunity to TRY some of these tools, when the opportunity arises, and understand that there really is quite a difference.

My personal frustrations started in my ventures in trying to pare to the line, no more than that!

Glad to hear from everyone.

Thanks so much for the friendly posts.

Dan

[Dan Racette]

When using a Japanese saw, I've learned to not look at the spot where the saw is actually cutting. What I do is to focus on the spot where the cut ultimately will end, and direct the saw to that point. Since the saw is kept straight by tension because it cuts on the pull stroke, it will track to the line of the cut. This way, I only am annoyed by the dust on the line at the end of the cut.

The other way to deal with this is orient the board so that the cut is made in a vertical fashion, which is easy to do with a pull saw.

Finally, one of the disadvantages of being a Japanese saw user in the U.S. is that the vast majority of Japanese saws have 240mm blades. For long rip cuts, a longer blade will give you better results, partly due to the increased length of the blade, and partly due to having coarser teeth.

There seems to be an expectation, probably because the vast majority of Japanese saws available here have 240mm blades, that a 240mm ryoba should be able to do all kinds of cuts. On the other hand, few people would think of using a 12" rip tenon saw to make a long rip cut in a board. It can be done, but it won't be the most fun thing in the world.

Unfortunately, it's not the easiest thing to find a large Japanese saw outside of mail order, although I noticed that Woodcraft has a 300mm ryoba the last time I was there.

Interesting way to describe the process.

[David DeCristoforo]

"I want to hear more about tools that are made in the traditional methods and...the difference between the quality of those tools and the tools that are generally available on the market..."

Well there are certainly plenty of cheap Japanese tools out there. I don't think buying them is any better than buying any other cheap (poor quality) tools and it most certainly makes no sense to buy them just so you can say you use Japanese tools.

Remember this though...many "handmade" Japanese tools are produced by makers whose tools are as good as those who have a more established name and therefore, can command a higher price for their tools. So you don't have to spend a fortune to buy decent tools. There are also a lot of very decent quality "mass produced" tools that sell for much less than their hand forged counterparts. I would suggest that you would spend the extra money for tools hand forged by a respected blacksmith for the same reason that people would buy a handmade piece of furniture from an artisan maker instead of the cheaper factory made piece.

There is no doubt that the finest, hand forged tools are a joy to use. But in a traditional Japanese working environment, these tools would never be owned by anyone but a master craftsman. Less skilled workers could buy them of course but their sense of propriety would forbid it. In his book "Japanese Woodworking Tools: Their Tradition, Spirit and Use", Toshio Odate tells of a time when his master confiscated a fine plane he had bought because he was not considered to yet be worthy of it.

One of the best resources for advice and information on good quality, reasonably priced Japanese hand tools is Hida Tool in Berekely, CA. They have a web site at
http://www.hidatool.com/
Another very interesting site is
http://www.daikudojo.org/index.html

YM

[Pedro Reyes]

OK, I don't want to debate, I have a pragmatic and specific question for the heavy Japanese tool users.

I got some Matsumura white steel chisels, allegedly made by hand. (is this true?)

I like them so far, specially for cleaning up joinery.

I know these are not the top of the line chisels since they are very reasonably priced. But are they crap? are they too far from what you would consider a good chisel? If you had to rank them, would they be too low?

Please don't hold back, give it to me straight, I won't be offended, I didn't make them and I didn't spend a fortune on the few I have. I use them for lighter type work and they work fine so even if they are crap I am able to use them and will keep them. I just want to get an idea of "how much better" it could be according to the Japanese tool users.

peace

/p

[David DeCristoforo]

Matsumura chisels are not "crap". Nor are they "the best". At around $40.00 each, one would expect "decent quality" tools...no? And there are many, I am sure, who would consider this to be somewhat above the "very reasonably priced" category. Not in the range of several thousand dollars for a set of ten which is what you could pay but still quite a bit more than the Marples "Blue Chip" at around $12-20 each and about the same as Sorbys (considered by many to be "excellent"). So don't stay up at night worrying about it....

YM

[Dave Burnard]

I got some Matsumura white steel chisels, allegedly made by hand. (is this true?)

For most peoples definition of "hand made", indeed they are. There's no CNC machines or stamps or presses etc. There are stationary grinders and power hammers involved - but those types of machines are useless without a highly skilled operator.

There's a smith who makes the chisel, starting with individual forge welds of a piece of steel onto the end of an iron/mild steel bar. Since the steel wraps the iron, it may take an extra heat to do the sides. Both hand and power hammers are used to do the rough forging of the taper of the chisel and side bevels. In a separate step a power hammer with specially shaped dies is used to draw out the neck and form the tang of the chisel. Afterwards the chisel blank is cleaned up on a grinder, all done by eye, and the hollows are ground in by eye (before or after hardening).

Heat treatment may be done with a charcoal or gas forge or it may be done with molten salt or lead baths - depending on the smith.

One person can do it all for small production, but for larger shops there will likely be different people working on different steps.

Before JapanWoodworker came along, Matsumura was probably a one or two person shop, I suspect he may have more help these days, but the production methods will be the same.

[Pedro Reyes]

Dave, Yoshikuni,

Thanks for your replies.

Yoshikumi,

When I said reasonably priced, it was in relation to some triple digit chisels out there. Also, never lost any sleep they perform very well for what I use them and I like them a lot. Thanks again.

/p

[Mark Singer]

"...I'd like to hear from more people who actually own some good Japanese tools, or who are tried and true Japanese tools users..."

I own and use a number of Japanese hand tools. Many planes, chisels and saws, all made by "artisan" blacksmiths of some status as "traditional" makers and many of which cost more than I care to admit spending. I have made many of the "dais" or plane bodies for the plane blades and all of the handles for the saws, all leather wrapped with much care. I enjoy using these tools and feel a connection with the tradition and history of their making. I also have a number of fine (expensive) natural water stones and regularly "enjoy" putting a razor edge on my chisels and planes with them.

But....how to answer the question of how much better of a woodworker I am using these fine tools? Certainly, my enjoyment of woodworking is greatly enhanced. But are my mortices "better" than those cut with top quality "western style" chisels? Or those ploughed out with a router? Are my tenons any "better" than if I had cut them with a fine, brass backed, rosewood handled "western style" back saw? Or milled them on a table saw? I'm thinking that they are not.

I believe that this is just like many other things in life. Driving may be much more enjoyable when you have a fine car to drive but you don't get where you are going any faster. You have to balance what it's worth to you as an individual and what you are willing to "make do" with. I have friends who pride themselves in keeping an old battered truck on the road rather than send it to the car crusher and buy a new one. And others who trade in their cars as soon as it loses that "new car smell". What works for you?

YM

This is an excellent response! You know the difference between good workmanship and fine tools and the two are often related.

[Dave Burnard]

On todays episode of "How It's Made" they paid a visit to a western chisel factory, not sure which one but they were making chisels labeled as Buck Bros. with yellow plastic handles. Drop forged into a mold and punched to shape so about half the raw material ends up in the recycling bin. Honed (rough ground) to razor sharpness too.

Interestingly they were tempered at 700F! Granted the show may have made a mistake but they got the hardening temperature right at 1400F. And granted those are chisels aimed at the DIY market. Still, 700F is past the usual tempering color chart, and on a carbon steel is about where you might temper a hammer (RC 52-54). They won't take or hold an edge, but they'll open a paint can nicely.

I suppose if they tempered them at something like 400F their customers would complain about them chipping and/or working only in softwoods.

[Joel Moskowitz]

Up until WW2 English and Western chisels were made pretty much the way they make them in Japan - although without the lamination since the late 19th century. That is humans forged and ground each chisel. Unlike Japan however there was tremendous job specialization in the factories.
After WW2 drop forging and machine grinding became common for most styles of chisels although not all.

Carving tools for all the except the very large makers are hand forged and hand ground. on bench chisels some companies do either depending on the batch size.

In the US chisels have been drop forged since the Civil War and the main reason for the existence of socket chisels in the US is that if you have a press big enough they are easier to make by machine and socketed handles don't require the custom fitting of a tanged handle.

If you go back to the early 19th century chisels in the west were made identically to the chisels in Japan but with more specialization.

The major problem with modern machine ground chisels is simply that when you harden a few hundred at a time it's tricky to get consistency and the harder they are the more they warp in hardening soyou save money by going softer. Also in the US companies are nervous about what happens when chisels are used for opening paint cans.