Powermatic 66 - USA Made?

[Rob Will]

"We should be dscussing ways to ensure that our kids are not relegated to low paying service jobs..."

I'm with you on that Tim. We really do need to address the "issue" of the idea of actually working for a living being viewed as a "bad thing". So many young people have been raised in an environment in which the only "honorable" way to make a living is to be the guy who writes the "next big game program" or who hits it big in the stock market. Most of the members of this forum understand the satisfaction and sense of "self worth" one gets from making something. But this has become so devalued now that it's only seen as a path for those of "low intelligence" or who are so unfortunate as to have no other good options. Turning this around is going to take a lot of work and a major shift in what we value. Anyway...tomorrow no "politics"...oh, no, never mind..."primaries" tomorrow... OK, no politics on Wednesday....YM
Anyway, some discussion....

This sort of goes back to the discussions we have had about the decline of shop classes in schools. Could it be that shop class was actually teaching more than "shop skills"? Could it be that shop class was teaching personal responsibility and a can-do attitude? Could it be that individual accomplishment, individual ownership, and pride in one's work has always been the real backbone of our economy?

Rob

[John Browne]

Yeah, I guess companies could just close the doors, if they can't be profitable, instead of going overseas. Either way, the jobs are lost.

I like it here and have had enough posts edited, so I'll refrain from speaking my mind about labor.

Heard the other day that many factories in Southern China are closing due to high labor costs--the owners are moving to Vietnam or other "cheap labor" countries throwing the Chinese out of work. The only guys making money there right now are the salvage companies dismantling the factories!

I have some great tools in my shop--made in the USA, and China, and Taiwan, and Japan, and Germany. They're all great, that's what they have in common. Frankly I don't give a fig where they're made, as long as they're good value (ie quality for the money). I'm really sorry to hear when people's jobs move overseas--probably sometimes it's avoidable, sometimes not. But until America can build a competitive product at a competitive price we'll continue to see this trend. Hey, we still lead the world in rap music

[Rob Will]

Heard the other day that many factories in Southern China are closing due to high labor costs--the owners are moving to Vietnam or other "cheap labor" countries throwing the Chinese out of work. The only guys making money there right now are the salvage companies dismantling the factories!

I have some great tools in my shop--made in the USA, and China, and Taiwan, and Japan, and Germany. They're all great, that's what they have in common. Frankly I don't give a fig where they're made, as long as they're good value (ie quality for the money). I'm really sorry to hear when people's jobs move overseas--probably sometimes it's avoidable, sometimes not. But until America can build a competitive product at a competitive price we'll continue to see this trend. Hey, we still lead the world in rap music

I guess I'll have to keep my eyes open for a Chinese bandsaw comparable to my Moak 36.

Rob

[Richard Wagner]

SawStop _ Made in the USA???

[John Thompson]

The Industrial Sawstop is made by Geetech in Taiwan. The PCS is made by another plant and if I remember from what I was told at IWF in 2007 it is made in China....

[Ben West]

Wow, this thread has gone in lots of directions.

Perhaps the biggest problem with buying American these days is that you do not necessarily get better quality. Yes, in the old days, USA-made stuff was superior to anything made in China or Taiwan. Not so today.

Case in point: I think most people would agree that the new Unisaw, the PM2000, and the SawStop Industrial are all of comparable quality. Without debating the fine points of each saw, they each are top-of-the-line, lifetime purchase cabinet saws. The SawStop and PM2000 are made in Taiwan, and the Unisaw is made in the USA.

Where something is made does not necessarily denote quality anymore, and that is a huge challenge for American manufacturing.

[Hugh Jardon]

Are people wanting to buy American because they think it is better quality, or because they want to support American workers?

It grates me when I see people offering advice like "OK, your saw's not running at full power, have you checked the extension cord? Make sure you buy a USA-made 12ga cable". As long as the cord is well made, UL-listed (which it would have to be anyway), and IS 12ga, what does it matter where it was made from a functional standpoint? Do you want one made in Ohio for $30 or the one made in China for $10? Even better, buy the Chinese one, and make a $20 donation to an American charity.

"Made FOR the USA" means big and cheap. If you want quality, Germany or Switzerland are the go-to guys.

[Karl Brogger]

If you want quality, Germany or Switzerland are the go-to guys.

I'll do the tasters test on anything made in the EU with a Northfield.

Is Oliver still around?

[Chuck Wintle]

General is still made in Canada......Rod.

The problem is they are hugely expensive though....but a very nice well made saw for those with a good budget.

[Steve Orbine]

I personally am sick of buying Asian goods which most often fail and end up in our landfills, while the national debt rises. With that said, it seems the appetite for a quality product is insufficient to support the scale of production needed to make economic sense. As demand declines, price rises and demise becomes inevitable. Take a look at Hardinge, a machine tool manufacturer located in Elmira, New York. Hardinge formerly built the famous HLV-H lathe, arguably the worlds finest tool room lathe (alongside the Monarch 10EE). As price rose, demand dwindled, and price rose further. The last HLV-H lathes cost over $50,000, and while a few were sold, it was eventually discontinued. Plenty of manual lathes are still built, even HLV-H knockoffs, but no more of the real thing.

So I agree that we have ourselves (as a whole nation, not SMC'ers of course) to blame, but it's hard at this point for a hobbyist to justify the extreme costs of a high end Euro-machine as compared to Asian semi-junk. There is nothing made in USA to even consider. Even in the 80's and 90's there was plenty of 'hate assembly' built into Made in USA machines.

As far as the Asian PM66, Powermatic has been manufacturing in Taiwan for 20 years. (Final assembly in the US does not constitute Made in USA in my book.) But they do seem to make a pretty good product, and they are positioned at the top of the Asian heap. I've bought some Powermatic, and so far so good. Had there been a Made in USA option I certainly would have looked at it.

[Rod Sheridan]

The problem is they are hugely expensive though....but a very nice well made saw for those with a good budget.

Charles, I absolutely agree, and absolutely disagree.

There, how's that for a stand?

I agree that if you look at the price of the 650 saw for example, it's a lot more money than the lowest priced import.

If you look however at the saw quality, and performance, couple it with a wish to keep jobs in Canada, it's a good price.

I think it has probably become less expensive than it was 20 years ago, compared to my income.

I guess I'm changing my buying habits as I get older, and have more concern for our future, and more disposable income.

That of course supports your comment, and when I was younger, raising a family etc, price was often a major factor.

Regards, Rod.

[Kent A Bathurst]

Chevy Vega. Ford Fairmont. Plymouth Reliant. Cadillac Cimmaron.
Datsun 810. Nissan Maxima. Accura Legend. BMW5xx.

Quick Quiz: Which list is where my money went? What are the odds I will switch my sourcing decisions after 30 years?

"But wait - you should try our new stuff. It's great." Good luck and Godspeed is my reply.

Country of origin has nothing to do with quality, in and of itself. "Bang for the buck" could mean good value, or Pinto, or Explorer on Firestones, or a Camry at Warp 4 heading for the trees.

I don't know, and I don't care, where my Uni, PM60, Delta DC-380 were made. They have been working great for > 10 years, which is why I bought them. Isolationist policies - whether economic or political - eventually and always fail.

[Rod Sheridan]

Isolationist policies - whether economic or political - eventually and always fail.

If they're legislated, I agree.

If they're personal they're very effective, such as the "Buy Local" promotions for food purchases.

Regards, Rod.

[Rob Steffeck]

The problem is they are hugely expensive though....but a very nice well made saw for those with a good budget.

Well, I guess it would depend on what you are comparing it to. I didn't find that to be true with my comparisons. My General 650 was cheaper than the SawStop PCS and new Unisaw. It was right around the same price as the PM2000 that I initially ordered, but couldn't get.

[Kent A Bathurst]

If they're legislated, I agree.

If they're personal they're very effective, such as the "Buy Local" promotions for food purchases.

Regards, Rod.

Rod - I absolutely agree - was referencing "international". But it all kinda applies at a local level too - Local food purchases also have the benefit that they generally deliver fresher, better quality product due to elimination of long-distance transport of perishable items. In many cases, they are the "manufacturers" selling to the consumer face-to-face or only one step removed, and the feedback loop is virtually instantaneous - failure to deliver a quality product at a fair price means you are gone right now, and the (local) competition gains that business. Spring is here, and the local Saturday "street markets" are about to open up again. Yuuummmm!!! The very good large supermarket is about to lose that business for the season - again. Picked-this-morning sweet corn and tangy radishes. Mothers milk.

The flip side is the hue and cry raised here (don't know about your side of the border) when a WalMart opens up - they "drive small businesses out". How in the world could that happen? Because consumers shift their patronage. Why? Well, gosh.....let me think....... Maybe we should use zoning permits to keep WalMart out? Nope - Let people use their pockets to make that decision - don't buy there, they'll close it down faster than they put it up. Their pay scale is too low? Excellent point - Don't work there - they'll close it down. Predatory practices - puh-lease. They buy from - gulp - China? See previous thoughts re: isolationist international economic policy - and Harding v. Treaty of Versaille, and the Immigration Quota Act of 1921 - That all worked out very well in the end, didn't it (especially the English language literacy test)? They encourage the exploitation of workers in other countries? I am actually very sympathetic to this specific argument, but I haven't figured out how witholding the business improves the life of those workers - zero income cannot be better than a lousy job - that issue is tough to unravel, other than with increased demand causing a labor shortage that drives up demand for a scarce resource (workers) and increases wages - so maybe we should be buying even more from them? Tough one - very tough.

The BORG 1.5 miles away gets little of my business, because I like and will pay for the convenience (I can park 20m from the front door) and service (over-staffed, almost) of the hardware store nearby. Their business model ensures success and longevity. I "buy local" from a small(er) store, because they are selling what I want to buy, at a "quality" (broadly defined) and price that I think is very fair.

My goat gets gotten with things like "don't buy Taiwan PM stuff." I won't anymore - I already did - and it will last my lifetime.

Whew. Rant over. NCAA tournament on TV - gotta go do something REALLY important - lay on the couch.