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Thread: Frank's Wrkshop: Dust Collection Plans

  1. #16
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    Austin, Texas
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    283
    Frank, a closet is real nice if you have the space, but I think you may be able to do without it. I have had to rebuild my Oneida once (defective impeller) and if it was in that small of a closet, my neighbors would have learned some "new" words. The internal filter would be a real bear in that small space too. The external filter could be outside of the closet but that defeats some of the sound abatement. If I were you I would install it without the closet, use it for awhile, and if the noise is a problem, then build it around it. I have mine outside of my shop with the external filter on the inside of my shop.

  2. #17
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    Mar 2004
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    Toronto, Ontario, Canada
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    Thanks for the advise Mike.

    I have deacided to wait until I have used the unit for a while before building a closet around it. I believe that I will eventually want a closet and I am thinking that I could build it in such a way that the walls can easilty be removed should the need arise.

  3. #18
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
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    Toronto, Ontario, Canada
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    My decision re dust control

    I thought that I would report upon what I decided to do for dust control. I purchased an Oneida 2 hp Commercial unit and expect to take delivery in late November. In the meantime, I have been simulating exactly where the duct work and drops will go in my shop. I did this by painting some strapping bright green then screwing in the locations where the duct work will go. Seeing this layout in place has been very valuable and, as a result, I have made a few minor changes.

    I am attaching some pictures:

    (1) The painted white plywood is in the spot where the dust control unit will go. The green strapping shows the lower location of the duct work. The black strips hanging down show the locations of the drops. There are 3 in this picture and there is a 4th in the next picture. The ceiling will be filled in with insulation then covered with painted plywood. The ductwork will be suspended below this. The beam will not be covered (just painted) and the trickiest part of the ductwork will be getting around this beam. (Oh yes, I am also simulation the lighting the two suspended yellow bits of OSB show the location of some of the fluorescent lights.)

    (2) This shows the location of the remainder of the ductwork as well as the 4th drop.

    (3) A close up of the trickier portion of the ductwork.

    As usual, I would appreciate any comments and suggestions re my plans.
    Attached Images Attached Images

  4. #19
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    Grand Marais, MN. A transplant from Minneapolis
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    5,513
    Frank,
    You are scaring buddy! Your work and process has been so thorough and methodical. Thought for a while there you were an Engineer.
    Very informative and inspiring.
    TJH
    Live Like You Mean It.



    http://www.northhouse.org/

  5. #20
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    Mar 2003
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    SE PA - Central Bucks County
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    Frank, it's important to remember that you'll need to transition from the ceiling mounted duct down to the cyclone and that you ideally need at least a 2' straight shot into the cyclone inlet. (Which is 7" diameter on the unit you bought...which is what I have in my shop) I only raise that as it might affect how you route your duct to avoid "headroom" issues. Duct work design needs to be both horizontal and vertical, so I suggest you do some preliminary drawings that take care of both and then have Oneida help you out with the final design. That's a free service with the purchase of your system.

    You'll also want to smooth out that drop that clears the central beam in the final run with real material. Any way you can mitigate the compound curves will make you happier in the long run, although your cyclone system will still kick butt regardless!

    BTW, I really like how you're working this out visually. Excellent idea!
    Last edited by Jim Becker; 09-17-2004 at 11:30 AM.

  6. #21
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
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    Toronto, Ontario, Canada
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tyler Howell
    Frank,
    You are scaring buddy! Your work and process has been so thorough and methodical. Thought for a while there you were an Engineer.
    Very informative and inspiring.
    Thanks Tyler, I really appreciate the encouragement. I was a software engineer and, in that job, I descovered just how valuable simulation can be.

  7. #22
    Frank, I love your shop and all the planning that went into it. When I built mine, 20x24 on a slab, I was in a hurry to just get the space. We had moved to a new home and all my tools were piled in the garage. I did not plan very well and have had to overcome many shortcomings because of it. Oh well, haste makes waste and all that. Enjoy!
    Big Mike

    I have done so much with so little for so long I am now qualified to do anything with nothing......

    P.S. If you are interested in plans for any project that I post, just put some money in an envelope and mail it to me and I will keep it.

  8. #23
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    South Windsor, CT
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    3,304
    Frank,

    A couple of comments:
    • Your "corners" should be as gentle a sweep as possible. The duct manufacturers sell "long radius" elbows and 90 degree sweeps. You might consider making mockups of a couple of those, because they take up a fair amount of space and could affect your layout a bit.
    • You want to make the transition from the run across your ceiling to the horizontal pipe that runs over to the DC as straight as possible. It's a little hard for me to tell from the picture, but does the run across the ceiling pass under before it jogs up? If it doesn't, it should - you want to minimize the twisting and bending (just like running electrical conduit - makes pulling wire easier).
    • Consider buying (and returning) some 4" pvc pipe and fittings from the local big box store. The point would be to use the pipe and fittings to mockup the real DC piping so you could see how the Y's and 45 degree bends would fit together. It could help you with ordering the actual fittings you'll need.
    • The mockups for your lights near the skylights make me wonder if the light shining in through the skylights will throw shadows from the lights.


    Rob

  9. #24
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    Mar 2003
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    SE PA - Central Bucks County
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Russell
    Consider buying (and returning) some 4" pvc pipe and fittings from the local big box store. The point would be to use the pipe and fittings to mockup the real DC piping so you could see how the Y's and 45 degree bends would fit together. It could help you with ordering the actual fittings you'll need.
    The only issue with this is that the 4" stuff will not spatially be illustrative of how much space the 5" and 6" long-radius elbows, etc., take up and 4" drops on that system will really choke things. That said, it would work fine if the mockups were done in such a way using 45º elbows caclulated out to the actual dimensions of the larger duct elbows, etc.

    I was really amazed at how much more room was needed for the long radius elbows when laying out the newer duct work through part of my shop after putting in the larger Oneida 2hp Commercial system! But they do make a noticiable difference in air flow and performance.

  10. #25
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    Feb 2003
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    South Windsor, CT
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    For the 4" pipe, I was thinking more of using the fittings to see how you could make the transitions in as few and as gentle bends as possible. An example is going from the cross ceiling run to the horiztonal run over to the DC. I do realize that the 4" will be much smaller than the 5/6" stuff.

  11. #26
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Lachute Qc. Canada
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    152
    Hi Frank,

    I'm not familiar with your previous shop post, since this is my first ever post here, at Sawmill Creek, and I was wondering why you're chosing those particular dc's, is it because of the 110v capability of the Oneida??

    Is price a big consideration??? Have you looked at the Oneida 2hp commercial???

    The Dec 2003 Cyclone reviews, published by Wood Magazine, seem to indicate that the 1.5 hp cyclone, would be very marginal, used with a 6" network. That's to say that 800 cfm, using 6" pipe, will net you just over 4000 FPM velocity. That's the lower limit for an efficient drop.

    The 1.5 hp Oneida, pulls 800 cfm, with a 5 foot long pipe, 6" in diameter, connected to the inlet.

    Adding length, adds resistance, to the tune of .4 " SP, per 10 feet of pipe. You'd have to calculate the resistance of your elbows, by converting those to equivalent length of straight pipe. That would be 12 ft equivalent length per elbow(90) in this case. That's with a long radius elbow, suited to dc's. It would be inapropriate to use that 12' equivalence, using the much tighter HVAC elbows. Resistance would be much higher.

    Calculate the resistance of your single worst-case scenario. Once you know that, you can chose the dc that best suits those requirements.

    I didn't recommend the 2hp Oneida, since it has the same impeller as the 1.5 hp, and will move the same amount of air, using 6" pipe. It will "look" better, in a test, but that's because the inlet on the 2hp version, is 7". When they test, they use ducting the same diameter as the inlet. With this reduced resistance, you'll pull more air. But,,,,,, when you hook it up to 6" pipe, that performance will be the same as the 1.5hp model. Both use a 12.5" impeller, turning at 3450 rpm. The commercial model, used a 14" impeller for the Wood Mag. Test, but is offered for sale, with a 13.5" impeller. Performance would be a little lower than indicated in the Wood test.

    Again, that 2 hp Commercial model, uses a 7" inlet, so you have to take that into account also, when making your choice. Especially if you're gonna use 6" ducting for your network. With the commercial model, hooked up to 6" pipe, I'd expect maybe 1000 cfm. That would give you some margin (headroom), for adding a duct network.

    You may find this link useful. I hope it helps. All the best, Bob
    http://www.oneida-air.com/techarea/pipe_size_01.htm

  12. #27
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    Mar 2003
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    SE PA - Central Bucks County
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    Bob, Frank, in his post from today, above indicated he's opted for the Oneida 2hp Commercial Cyclone, not the 1.5hp. Also, the design of the currently shipping impeller on that unit is improved over the older impeller, despite the size difference. Mine will suck the fleas off a dog 5 miles away in New Jersey...

    BTW, welcome to SMC! Don't forget to fill out your profile!
    Last edited by Jim Becker; 09-17-2004 at 4:06 PM.

  13. #28
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    Feb 2003
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    South Windsor, CT
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    Hey Bob, nice first post - glad to see another poster who doesn't mind typing out more than a few sentences!. Welcome to SMC.

    Comparing the 2HP to 1.5HP blowers, I'd expect to see the 2HP povide higher static pressure, even if the overall CFM is limited due to duct size.

  14. #29
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Lachute Qc. Canada
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    Hiya Jim, Thanks for that nice welcome, I'll get on the profile right away. I just noticed that I had only read one page of this thread, so I hadn't seen any of page two. DOH!!!!

    That 2hp Commercial should be a very nice dc. In fact, it was exactly the one I had decided on buying a few years back. Had to back out though, since the Canadian dollar, shipping,duties,taxes , ****erage fees, almost gave me a heart-attack, lol. It certainly looked to me to be a very competent performer, and totally capable of handling any well-equiped one-man shop. The folks at Oneida were sooo nice, too. Congratulations Frank. You'll be very happy with that dc. Very high quality unit, bullet-proof motor, and superb welding, and heavy sheet-metal. A unit like this will allow to to "grow" your shop , without having to replace the dc, and years of satisfaction.

    In my case, I chose to go with an Industrial single-stage dc, a Belfab J.J. It was manufactured just outside Montreal, which is close to me. In the end I ended paying roughly half what the Oneida would have cost me, landed. It also uses very heavy sheet-metal throughout, spin-balanced 12 1/2" aluminum impeller, 2hp Baldor, with Class "F" insulation, and an amazing 1.25 Service factor rating, and manual thermal overload protection. Bullet-proof.

    It actually pulls about 100 cfm more than the Oneida 2 hp Comm, at 4'5"External SP. Pulls 1100 cfm at 4.5" external SP, and that's through a 6" inlet. Filtration's pretty decent, too. 0.5 micron, using certified industrial needle-felt filters. Those flow over 60cfm/sq.ft., and on this dc, they're only being used at half capacity, so small particle filtration is excellant. Very satisfied indeed. Bought mine through an industrial supply store, called J.R. Normand Inc. in Laval Qc. They had a heck of a deal on it.

    By the way Frank, what a nice shop. Ohhhh, what I wouldn't do for THAT space. That's the next "Treat" I'll pay myself. I'm sooo crowded as it is now. Just a single garage, but tons of big machinery. The worst space-hog, is a big General 26020VFD lathe. Wouldn't be too bad if I were only turning spindles, I could shove it up against a wall, but I equiped it for outboard bowl turning, so at best , I can only use it at 45 degrees to the wall. I'm actually thinking of moving it to the basement, to free up more space. I'll have to eat my Wheaties, for that one. I might try a mobile base for that, too. We'll see.

    Have a great weekend everyone. All the best, Bob

  15. #30
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    Lachute Qc. Canada
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    152
    Hiya Rob, Just saw your post as I was leaving. Actually, there will be no difference. None at all. It's the same impeller, and turns at the same rpm. The only difference is the cyclone's body intake. The 2hp, uses 7", and the 1.5 hp, uses 6".

    The 2hp, will therefore move more air through the less resistive inlet, but that disappears when you neck back down to 6" pipe. You COULD use 7" pipe, but you'd have very little headroom left for a network. Would be great for a single 7" source though.

    Using 7" inlets, with a 12 1/2" impeller, generates some nice testing specs(total cfm, but at low SP.), but the SP performance would be marginal for a network. You'd really have to neck down to 6" pipe. That's plenty for any one-man shop.

    All the best, Bob

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