Karl Holtey $5000 ?!?!

[Michael Gibbons]

If Holtey can get paid the prices he's asking, the more power to him. How many Creekers own one? Not many I would imagine. I just went and added up all the prices in the Lie-Nielsen catalog and you can get 1 of everything (planes that is) for $9584. I wonder what Holtey charge for 3/4 in chisel? $575? We had a heated thread a while back in which I asked what brand of planes does everyone own. Some felt ousted because I didn't include a few brands in which Holtey was one. I don't recall anyone putting in a absentee ballot for Holtey since it's not mainstream. It's just simply too expensive for the average Creeker.

[Derek Cohen]

Michael

Your comments make huge assumptions about who the Mr Average Woodworker is, about the value system of the potential Holtey customer, and that $575 for a chisel is a lot of money.

First off, when you compare the cost of one Holtey plane against the collective range of the LN planes you are assuming that the respective customers have the same concept of perceived value. Someone who is prepared to spend tens of thousands for a single plane is NOT thinking about whether they missed the boat and should have bought LN instead!

Chisels? Well there are a great many (especially Japanese) chisels that sell for hundreds of dollars each. Tasai here are around the mid three hundred mark:
http://www.japanwoodworker.com/produ...&dept_id=12776

Sets of 10 selling for $2500 are really not uncommon. Have a look at the website of So .... http://www.japan-tool.com/

The point I am making is that anyone in the market for tools in this price range is less interested in value-for-money, and to appreciate where they are coming from you have to step into their shoes. The advantage of this for oneself is that you shift your focus past the sticker shock and begin to appreciate the craftsmanship and the beauty of the tool itself.

Regards from Perth

Derek

[Eddie Darby]

While we are all concerned about wasting money, and well we should be, some people have put up their nose this week-end more than a Holtey's worth of cocaine.
As I understand it, the drop in the U.S. dollar will mean that drug habits will cost more now.
Hey do you smoke? Two pack a day man? Then say good-bye to your Holtey.

[Grant Vanbokklen]

The point I am making is that anyone in the market for tools in this price range is less interested in value-for-money, and to appreciate where they are coming from you have to step into their shoes. The advantage of this for oneself is that you shift your focus past the sticker shock and begin to appreciate the craftsmanship and the beauty of the tool itself.

I agree with your comments. If I had the 100's of millions, I might probably buy one. If I had 100's of millions I would probably most definitely have the complete Lie-Neilsen collection though.

[Don C Peterson]

I don't see ever spending that kind of money for a plane, but I'd sure like to have the option...

There's something that really bothers me about these type of threads though. If you, like me, can't see spending that kind of money for a plane, that's fine, but it strikes me as pretty arrogant to state or imply that there is some sort of moral deficiency that leads one to do so. What difference does it make to anyone else if someone finds a Holtey or Anderson plane worth their money? Who cares if there are people that buy a Holtey and never use them? There are many people who spend much more than that for art that to my eye, is far inferior. Conversely there is no inherent virtue in buying flea market planes for $5. Value is in the eye of the beholder.

[Johnny Kleso]

I just thought it to be a little off that a very good 10" table saw could go for less. I mean how long does it take to make a plane like these with the modern tools that are available?

I bought a HF Morticer for $99 and about two years ago Hartville tools had a great sale on Two Cherries mortice chisels and they where $199

I work for 35+ years making machines as a tool makers and I race any one, me making four chisels and them a morticing machie

I also think I must have been crazy to buy those chisels but like Rob said, how much would a used HF morticer go for against Two Cherries chisels 2030 year do the road..

Karl and Ian are the DaVinci's of planes in this day I feel.. You cant go wrong with the best...

[Raney Nelson]

My guess is 4hrs per plane if one person had all the tools (expensive) and skills once the AutoCad was drawn up. That could take a good AutoCad guy a day or so.

That's my quick guess.

I had to laugh at this. 4 hours? To me, this is the exact equivalent of someone looking at a Philadelphia Highboy and guessing it probably takes 20 or so hours to make, so why should it cost so much? "I mean, someone who's good with a compucarve could finish the trimwork in about two to three hours max, right? And what is there - maybe four sheets of MDF used in that piece? I suppose the veneer might be a little expensive, but personally I'll stick with my IKEA Billy Bookshelves.."

Now, I have nothing against IKEA and have owned some Billy bookshelves in my college days. But I still find it amusing when someone suggests that really good furniture is grossly overpriced because they assume it can't take much longer than a mass-produced piece.

I think Holtey is probably making a reasonably good living, but I sincerely doubt he's building any kind of financial empire given the time it takes to make these, and the volumes he can deal in.

[Michael Gibbons]

Derek, I am not making any greatly generalized assumptions about anyone. Out of the few thousands of woodworkers that are registered here on Sawmill Creek, what percentage of them have Holtey-or other small scale plane makers-planes that cost that much? If a woodworker takes a LN 4 1/2 and a Holtey 4 1/2 and sharpens the blades exactley the same way then planes a section on a common board, will you see a $4,500 difference in the finished piece? Remember that a majority here think LN is out of their reach financialy, hence the large number of threads in this forum pertaining to restoring or finding flea market finds. Now I'm going to e-mail Santa Clause and put my request in for an infill smoother since he'll have to put his name on the waiting list... for Christmas 2012

[Steve Evans]

I'll gladly spend my money on Karls, and Konrad's, and hopefully in the future. some of Jim Leamy's and Wayne Anderson's planes, long before I'll buy a standard half million dollar cookie cutter mcmansion, surrounded by identical half million dollar cookie cutter mcmansions. Why that allows my priorities to be villified and belittled, I have no idea. I guess I should spend my money on cigarettes and booze and watching Nascar, and then I could show my face in public.

Quick cost breakdown

Nascar Weekend

(not meaning to bash Nascar enthusiasts)

up to $1500-$3000

Smokes

pack a day approx $1000

Booze

twice/week $30 visit

$1800

There goes $4-$6 grand. But for some reason that's acceptable. I guess it's because it's you have nothing physical in the end (other than lung cancer/cirhossis/ and probably some hearing damage).
End of my one and only rant on this.

[Eddie Darby]

Now I'm going to e-mail Santa Clause and put my request in for an infill smoother since he'll have to put his name on the waiting list... for Christmas 2012

I think that there is some kind of 'clause' that Santa Claus has that needs to be met before you qualify for a gift. Something about being 'knotty' or nice.
Do you think you can pull that one off before 2012???

[vincent nobel]

I have seen some of Karl's planes and I would absolutely love to have some. They are absolutely beautiful, and, I have been told, work wonderfully too.

For those of you in the US the price will only increase the way the US dollar is going, but it is true, these planes are beyond the means of almost any furniture maker, also here in Europe.

[Ron Dunn]

Not just a tool, but a work of art.

Sadly for me there are just too many other priorities on my spending list before I get anywhere near that tool ... and being brutally honest, until my skills get better it would be like putting a Stradivarius in a primary school orchestra.

[mike holden]

You know, if I bought a corvette, porsche, viper, etc. No one would say I was wasting my money. But I could outfit a nice workshop, including a sawstop and a selection of Holtey planes for the cost of one of those cars!
Just like a corvette, an econobox, gets you from place to place.
Just like a vintage stanley, a Holtey takes fine shavings.
If I prefer to drive a corvette or use a Holtey, and it doesnt keep food off the table or affect the roof over my family's heads - why should that matter?
It is a gorgeous tool, and if you can afford it, and it makes you feel good using it - then go for it! And please let me try it when I drop by!
Mike

[Mike Cutler]

3 1/2 week trip to Australia. Started in Sydney and just went where the wind blew us. $10-12K, and worth every dime. I'd do it again tomorrow.
All I brought back was a boomerang and a hat.

My god what a beautiful country.

It's all relative folks.

[Rob Lee]

(snip) All I brought back was a boomerang .... (snip)

...'course you brought it back.... how do you throw away a boomerang???

Cheers -

Rob
(adding no more value to this discussion....)