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Thread: Do I need to Joint a board first

  1. #1
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    Do I need to Joint a board first

    I am relatively new to woodworking and have a Delta Cabinet Saw, 4 inch jointer, and a Delta 121/2 inch planer. Do I need to edge joint a board, or can I use my table saw to get a single reference clean straight edge and then run it through the planer. I realize that I may need to make multiple thin cuts in the process, but it seems that my table saw fence can act as a long reference surface to get two parallel edges and that multiple shallow passes through the planer, should provide a board with straight edges, parallel surfaces with true 90 degree angles on each edge.

    Since my jointer is very narrow, it seems like the method I have described should work. What am I missing?

  2. #2
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    You need to first joint a face then place that jointed face against the jointer fence and joint an edge. Next run it through the planer then put the jointed edge against the table saw fence and cut the last side parallel to the other edge and square to the faces.

    The limitation you have is that your jointer is only 4". I have the same limitation but mine is 6". You cannot joint stock wider than your jointer. There are ways but too detailed to discuss here. Search for "jointing stock wider than your jointer" and you find some solutions.

    You could cut the unjointed edge before running it through the planer but I prefer the order I outlined.
    Last edited by George Bokros; 01-29-2015 at 1:16 PM.
    George

    Making sawdust regularly, occasionally a project is completed.

  3. #3
    You can only do this with safety if the board has one straight edge. If the fence-running edge is crooked, then as the piece moves along, the cutting edge will not move in a straight line through the blade.

    Think of it in the extremes:

    If the fence-running side is a convex arc, then the fence only contacts a single point through the cut, so the fence isn't doing anything; it's a free-hand cut.
    If the fence-running side is a concave arc, then the piece will arc as it goes through; the second contact point keeps changing the distance between the edge of the board and the blade. It'll cut an arc if you're lucky, and will kickback if you're not.

    The only way to JOINT with a table saw is to clamp/screw a straight reference sled to the piece, and to run that edge against the fence. The sled keeps the target piece riding through the blade straight.

    Now, this is all in theory.

    In practice, if your board is very slightly wavy, then you may be able to get away with ripping a clean edge and having it come out fairly well jointed. You can improve results by flipping and re-ripping so you're doing opposite edges until it comes out passable. The same goes for planing a mildly banana piece. The point is, you just need enough of a flat that can register to the fence all the way through the cut - critically, before the blade, where your pushing pressure will be. Any gaps between the piece and the fence before the blade will make it very difficult and *not advisable* to push through straight; the piece will then want to contact the back of the blade.
    Last edited by Prashun Patel; 01-29-2015 at 1:18 PM.

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by John Bullock View Post
    I am relatively new to woodworking and have a Delta Cabinet Saw, 4 inch jointer, and a Delta 121/2 inch planer. Do I need to edge joint a board, or can I use my table saw to get a single reference clean straight edge and then run it through the planer. I realize that I may need to make multiple thin cuts in the process, but it seems that my table saw fence can act as a long reference surface to get two parallel edges and that multiple shallow passes through the planer, should provide a board with straight edges, parallel surfaces with true 90 degree angles on each edge.

    Since my jointer is very narrow, it seems like the method I have described should work. What am I missing?
    The "standard" approach [which will not last for the next few replies ] :
    1. joint one face
    2. hold aht face against the jointer fence; joint one edge
    3 You now have a perfect 90* corner between 2 adjacent flat surfaces. Now you match those surfaces by:
    4. plane second face. Now it is flat and parallel to first face.
    5. jointed edge against rip fence; cut 2d edge. It is now parallel to first edge
    6. joint 2d edge
    7. 4 corners @ 90*; edges flat and parallel; faces flat and parallel.

    A planer won't get you to a flat board. It will get you to a board with 2 parallel faces, but there is enough "muscle" in the drive rollers taht they will flatten out an twist, etc. The blard will return to original geometry after it exits the planer. Parallel sides, which follow any curves in the board.

    With a 4" jointer, you start to run into problems in a real hurry. RIpping perfectly good wide boards down to 4" see like a cryin' shame.

    2 options - I will leave these up to others here - they have much more experience in them than I:
    1. You can joint a board up to [or nearly up to] 8" on a 4" jointer. Has been discussed here a few times - you should be able to rummage around and find it on a search.
    2. A planer sled. Lotta guys use it, and don't even hae a jointer. YOu can definitely find info on it here using search.

    BTW - guys who like and use jointers are on a constant mission - it is a no-win proposition.
    > If I only had a 6" jointer, I could run wood up to 6", so I upgrade to one.
    > Now I am finding that the "sweet spot" at the lumber yard is 6" - 8" wide. Ok, I'll upgrade again.
    > Now that I've gotten reasomably decent at the WW thing, I am running into some georgeous wides. Man - If I only had a 12" jointer.....................

    I have been stuck on the third step for some years now. The only saving grace is that there is simply no room to go to a 12". Someday we'll move, and then.................
    Last edited by Kent A Bathurst; 01-29-2015 at 1:19 PM.
    When I started woodworking, I didn't know squat. I have progressed in 30 years - now I do know squat.

  5. #5
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    Yep, a jointer can never be too large unless it won't fit into your shop. I have a 10-1/4" Inca - and then I buy some beautiful 12"+ stock. I'd have a 15" J/P if they weren't so darned expensive - and I could figure it out how to get it down into my basement. Many people get by just fine with an 8" jointer, even many a pro shop. You can joint stuff much wider once you learn how. Unfortunately, you can't on the Inca doe to its design. A 4" jointer, however, is pretty worthless except for edge jointing. You'll be doing work arounds more often than not and that gets old very fast.

    John

  6. #6
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    Before you freak out from the 12-step programs listed above, first tell us what you plan to build and if you plan to use rough cut lumber or S4S? It makes a huge difference in your work flow.
    Scott Vroom

    I started with absolutely nothing. Now, thanks to years of hard work, careful planning, and perseverance, I find I still have most of it left.

  7. #7
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    A TS fence will translate the irregularities in the board unless you mount the board to a known reference edge and use that against the fence. The jointer creates a reference edge....the TS fence will not.
    Happiness is like wetting your pants...everyone can see it, but only you can feel the warmth....

  8. #8
    Key to fine, predictable woodworking: Flat unstressed material.
    The only tool (besides a hand plane) that can do that is the jointer.
    A board through the saw shares its stress relief with the harvested stock.
    So you get 2 or more bent sticks instead of one.
    The jointer flattens and straightens, essentially without imposing or relieving stress.
    Would I start at the jointer? 100% of the time.

  9. #9
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    Quote Originally Posted by George Bokros View Post
    You need to first joint a face then place that jointed face against the jointer fence and joint an edge. Next run it through the planer then put the jointed edge against the table saw fence and cut the last side parallel to the other edge and square to the faces.
    This is the first thing the shop teacher taught us in woodworking class in highschool.

    Don't get frustrated with your 4" jointer, you can still get quite a bit accomplished with it. My father only had a 4" jointer when I was growing up and we did everything on it. I spent 20 years with a $159 Harbor Freight 6" jointer and the stupid thing worked so well I could never justify upgrading it. I now have my fathers 8" Jet jointer and feel like I am in the lap of luxury! Sure a 12" jointer would be nice but the 8" Jet has nicely done everything I need from a jointer.

    Jointers can be intimidating. Learn how to use yours properly and safely. A good solid stand is a must for a small jointer. You don't want the jointer to move or slip at all when you are using it. A tipsy base on a jointer is very dangerous!
    Last edited by Mike Schuch; 01-30-2015 at 3:43 AM.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by pat warner View Post
    Key to fine, predictable woodworking: Flat unstressed material.
    The only tool (besides a hand plane) that can do that is the jointer.
    A board through the saw shares its stress relief with the harvested stock.
    So you get 2 or more bent sticks instead of one.
    The jointer flattens and straightens, essentially without imposing or relieving stress.
    Would I start at the jointer? 100% of the time.
    Absolutely correct
    Beware of shortcuts..... Especially w $$ stock
    my favorite ww quote ( besides my tag line) is- if you start out crooked, you gonna end up crooked
    David
    Confidence: That feeling you get before fully understanding a situation (Anonymous)

  11. #11
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    "The only way to JOINT with a table saw is to clamp/screw a straight reference sled to the piece, and to run that edge against the fence."

    There is another way to joint on a table saw...
    http://www.woodworkersjournal.com/375/

  12. #12
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    Has the OP showed back up on this thread, or did we overwhelm him to the point he sold his jointer and bought new fishing rods for a different avocation?

    John B - you out there somewhere?
    When I started woodworking, I didn't know squat. I have progressed in 30 years - now I do know squat.

  13. #13
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kent A Bathurst View Post
    Has the OP showed back up on this thread, or did we overwhelm him to the point he sold his jointer and bought new fishing rods for a different avocation?

    John B - you out there somewhere?
    I was just wondering the same thing. Folks who want to make the move from 2x4 coffee tables to finer furniture can easily be overwhelmed by the difference. Preparing your stock before making parts is just one of the eye-openers for beginners. I hope John is still with us.

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