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Thread: Technique: Avoiding Creeps (Pocket screw creeps, that is!)

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
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    Chappell Hill, Texas
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    Technique: Avoiding Creeps (Pocket screw creeps, that is!)

    Don't you hate it when you've invested $$ on pocket screw technology and you STILL have to sand things flush and flat? I do. My most recent purchase was this tool, the Kreg Foreman air driven pocket screw cutter. It cuts fine, but it is a little different from my old Porter Cable 550 - a router based pocket screw cutter.

    <img src="http://burchwoodusa.com/miscpix/pockethole_machine.jpg" alt="Kreg Foreman Air Driven Pocket Hole Cutter.">

    My old PC 550 cut a much flatter pathway (a much longer hole too), so the screw entered the butt joint at about 2°. It was fairly consistent at staying put when the screw was driven, as there was a full pilot hole made as part of the drilling operation (albeit a second, manual step with a hand drill, long thin drill bit through a bushing, into the end grain and existing into the router-created swath).

    This new (much quieter) Kreg is a lot faster than the Porter Cable, but with that came new techniques to learn to produce flush joints. At first, many of my joints were pulled offset by the action of the operation. Since there was not a clean exit hole for the screw, debris would be pushed out by the screw between the pieces.

    <img src="http://burchwoodusa.com/miscpix/pockethole_debris.jpg" alt="Wood debris created by the screw">

    Since the pieces were now further apart, and the screw is heading down at a 7° angle, the screw would enter the mating (target) piece lower. When it was pulled tight, it would be pulled up, thus creeping upwards, producing a non flush, somewhat offset joint.

    So, I've come up with two things that can be done, short of investing in complicated or expensive machinery or building a universal clamping jig.

    First, I pre-drive the pocket hole screw (sometimes called face frame screws) to make a clean hole. Any debris that will come out does. Along with this, I make sure there are no proud chips still sticking out of the hole that might cause the two pieces to not meet flush.

    <img src="http://burchwoodusa.com/miscpix/pockethole_pilothole.jpg" alt="No thru-hole produced my the Kreg">

    Second, I shim the piece that the screw starts in, and apply downward pressure to the target piece.

    <img src="http://burchwoodusa.com/miscpix/pockethole_someshimming.jpg" alt="Shimming the source piece, not the target piece">

    For the picture below, shown on the left, no pilot hole was made and no shimming was used, and I held the joint as best I could with one hand while power driving the screw with the other. In the middle example, I made a pilot hole and used a piece of printer paper, folded once, as a shim. On the right, again, I made the pilot hole and I used the same paper, folded twice as a shim. This last example is quite acceptable.

    <img src="http://burchwoodusa.com/miscpix/pockethole_endresult.jpg" alt="End result, showing all three examples">

    Here are some face frames that I did this afternoon, using my "old" method and using the "new" method just figured out. The frame in back will eat my lunch in time spent sanding the joint flush. The frame in front will merely get the obligatory final sanding.

    <img src="http://burchwoodusa.com/miscpix/pockethole_realworld.jpg" alt="Real World example - saving money by not spending as much time sanding">

    Even if you have the portable Kreg pocket hole system, or another brand, perhaps you can use either or both of these tips to help produce a better face frame joint.

    Todd

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    Cecil Wisconsin (near Green Bay)
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    Thanks for the tip Todd. My new Kregg Pro pack was delivered yesterday and I'm planning to give it a workout this weekend. I'll keep in mind your tips as I try it out and find out what works best.


    Dean

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jan 2004
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    Tacoma, Wa
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    222
    Thanks Todd.....it's post's like this that make this such a good forum...I'm always learning something.

    Regards,
    Greg

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Broken Arrow(Tulsa), OK
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    Todd,

    I particulary like the tip of running the screw in/out before assembly. However, I don't have much problem with the joint not being flush as long as I use the Kreg visegrip like clamp. It is a little time consuming, but not as much as sanding. Your shim idea might be faster than using the clamp.

    Bob

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    Southlake, TX
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    75
    At a WW show I bought the Kreg Universal Bench clamp.

    See

    http://www.kregtool.com/iwwida.pvx?;...%20%20%20&fs=0

    It's a metal plate 10x10 that you sink into a bench top and a Kreg clamp that locks into the plate. It does a good job of keeping the pieces flush while making frames. I've never really had the problems you are reporting when using this setup (but I have had plenty of other problems


    Bob

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Mar 2003
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    SE PA - Central Bucks County
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    I also use the big-pad ViceGrip clamp that came with my Kreg jig and rarely have a problem with misalignment, both laterally and "in the other direction". Joints usually require little or no sanding relative to the position of the mating surface.
    --

    The most expensive tool is the one you buy "cheaply" and often...

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Chappell Hill, Texas
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    One of the promos that came with my unit was a $40 credit for a tool out of their catalog. I will be sending off the universal plate and I will inlet it into my benchtop. Thanks for the comments on the plate, it sounds as if it is worthy. The visegrip thingy they threw in would work fine with in a zero gravity environment, as both sides on both pieces must be available for clamping.

    Until then....

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    Rhode Island
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    NICE POST Thanks, THIS what ww forums are

    supposed to be! I am new here, having been a limited poster ar other forums, I read em all., but you guys are great!

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
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    Cockeysville, Md
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    Thanks Todd! I always enjoy reading and learning this kind of stuff. Your photo skills are quite good also!

    Question: Would there be any benefit to shiming the part before you drilled the holes?

    Brian
    The significant problems we encounter cannot be solved at the same level of thinking we were at when we created them.

    The penalty for inaccuracy is more work

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
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    Chappell Hill, Texas
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    Brian, I don't think so. That would just raise where the screw came out of the endgrain. Same problem, different location.

  11. #11
    Todd,
    I've got the K2000 kit as opposed to the production cutter, and I think Kreg is applying a thought process to your machine that really applies more to mine. In reading the Kreg literature, they tout the "no pilot hole" as an intentional part of the design. According to them, the pilot hole would create a ridge of waste material between the two pieces to be joined. That's because the pilot hole would be produced from the same side as the pocket hole, so the waste would protrude from the endgrain of that piece.

    The production cutter, however, would be better designed with a 2-step process. I believe the PC model that you referred to is similar to the one that Norm has used in the past. It uses a router to cut the pocket, and a drill bit to cut the pilot into the endgrain. It's a 2-step process, but it's at one machine and should, in theory, produce better alignment than the Kreg process.

    Looks like you found a good workaround, though. Unfortunately, I had this *exact* same problem earlier this week with a hard maple face frame. Once that thing is out of alignment, you're stuck sanding everything flush. You're right, it's a huge time waster - good thing everyone enjoys sanding so much...

    Steve

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Location
    Hudson Valley, Upstate NY
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    240
    Todd, I'm new to the pocket hole world, and I had been using biscuits to aid alignment (talk about overkill). I was using pocket holes to join some architrave-like door casing pieces which needed to be flush on the back (wall side). My method was:
    1) mark and cut biscuits
    2) drill pocket holes next to biscuit slots
    3) join trim pieces
    4) wonder if I was saving any time.

    Thanks for the tip.

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Eau Claire, Wisc.
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    74
    Even when using the vicegrip clamp that Kreg supplies, I would experience the screw pushing the joint apart and the joint would misalign due to the screw pulling at an angle just as Todd described.

    My solution is to use a long clamp to hold the two parts together and the Kreg vice grip clamp to hold them in alignment. This method has eliminated alot of sanding for me.

    Todd, Great pictures

    Joe

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
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    Laguna Beach , Ca.
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    Todd,
    Thanks, that is a common problem with the Kreg system and your suggestions are great! I have used clamps and also a nailgun when possible to eliminate that movement.
    "All great work starts with love .... then it is no longer work"

  15. #15

    Hmmmm,

    I noticed this problem after using my jig for a while, then noticed that I was not drilling through the end, and I remember there was a hole originally, so I adjusted the stop down a bit (assumed it had slide) and that problem has not reappeared. YMMV. I also use the kreg vise clamp

    Dave

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